Is PNI the result of past issues or not?

[Veritee]

Dear All

Hopeful wrote to the Marce society - of which we are a member see: www.marcesociety.com/

They also have a pack about "Emotional Effects of Childbirth" That I want to get hold of.

The person who responded on behalf of the Marce society was happy for us to use some of her reply to start a discussion on here about how many of us felt past issues 'difficult early life' and things like 'minority status, family violence, social isolation, language problems, housing or financial difficulties, cigarette, alcohol or drug use, developmental disability, bereavements or other losses' have played a part on us getting PNI.

For me I have always felt like it did and if the above are indicators then I can tick almost all of them.

but I am aware that many women who come on here have not been aware of any emotional, anxiety or mental health issues or adverse circumstances that have effected them, be fore they had PNI and have never had any difficulties before PNI and often recover never to have difficulties again.

However I have also been aware that those of us that do have theses factors appear to suffer longer and have more issues 'left over' once they recover PNI than those who don't - but this is only empirical evidence based on the very small sample of those who use this forum who have PNI, so I could not really say that this is the case.

But we thought we would throw the words of the Marce representative out on this forum to see what yo uall felt about this statement below?

_________________________________________


''I think I'd like to add that, whether or not some of the women I know had an episode of diagnosable illness, many of them were in trouble long before that - -usually because of a difficult early life - and that helping them with their "illness" is only part of what needs to be done to help the woman and her family. For many women, anxiety and depression, though not at illness/caseness level, is a life-long experience.

We have an initiative here (with which beyond blue is helping us - -www.beyondblue.org.au) that aims to ask enough psychological and social questions during pregnancy and the postpartum period to pick out women who are experiencing anxiety or depressive symptoms or who have other indicators of psychological or social vulnerability (adverse childhood, minority status, family violence, social isolation, language problems, housing or financial difficulties, cigarette, alcohol or drug use, developmental disability, bereavements or other losses, etc etc ) so that can offer additional support, before things go pear-shaped for them.

We have been trying to persuade people that antenatal struggles are just as common and problematic, so we now talk about Perinatal (conception to 12 months postpartum) Depression and related disorders.''

___________________________________________
Veritee & Hopeful

[ubu]

Sounds like a lot of sense to me. I for one had depression and anxiety (both treated with medication) years before I conceived. I have a complicated family history, an alcoholic father, a personal history of alcohol and drug abuse and I was highly promiscuous before I settled with my now husband. These are, I realise too late, all factors which have lead me into a depression in the past. It never occurred to me that it could cause me to have PNI. If I had realised, I might well have sought counselling BEFORE conception rather than now when things are a lot more complicated!
HTH
Ubu xx

[helenr]

Hi, apart from bereavement when I was much younger, none of the factors above apply to me.
The only thing I did have during my last preg was an overwhelming feeling of doom. I thought I was going to die during op, and about a month before hand, had written letters to my mum, hubby, L and soon to be born bub, with explicit instructions that they had to get over me. Don't know where it came from, very unlike me. As some of you know,I have been diagnosed with one PNI ontop of another, maybe it was the PNI starting to rear its ugly head.
I do wonder though, if the fact that I have no family around us is a factor with me?

[joannem]

Hi
Have to say I totally disagree with this one!
None of the above applied to me, yet PNI still got its vile claws in to me.
In fact flicking back to some of what is said in it makes me a bit angry! "many of them were in trouble long before that"..... and "illness" - yes it is a bloody illness!!
(sorry bit irate!)I know some women may have issues with these things but i know of many mums who were absolutely fine and still had PNI severely.
So there you go!
Joannem

[helenr]

Its going to be interesting, this one!

[winegirl]

I had a short bout of depression in my late teens, and have prob had a bit of a tough time of it in the past. But I don't think any of these things for me personally were a contributing factor. I literally changed over night after giving birth from being confident and getting on with it to being a sickly nervous wreck.

Maybe it is just the case that past issues are more of a key player in PNI in some woment more than others? Be interesting to fing out though.

[Veritee]

Yes totally agree with you Joannem and winegirl etc

This was my initial reaction not from my own situation but from talking to just so many women with PNI over the years.... That PNi has notign to do with the above circumstanses or life experiences as suggested by the Marce representative

This is why I said this:

but I am aware that many women who come on here have not been aware of any emotional, anxiety or mental health issues or adverse circumstances that have effected them, before they had PNI and have never had any difficulties before PNI and often recover never to have difficulties again.

But then I am one of - the minority - on here who do have past and very long lasting issues so while I do think that this is just my own individual situation - and of course all life's experiences contribute to everything you go through -

I do not know if I can say that I do very much disagree that the main causes of PNI in general and for most have its roots in past issues - as mine very well might do, but it has always despite this been my fundamental belief that PNI is an illness that anyone can suffer after a birth regardless of circumstances.

So my own experience does not mean this is so for most and by putting it down to an individuals past situation and issues

Saying it is for me is like blaming an individual woman for having PNI!!

I am sorry I seem like I am contradicting myself here ..
but this is why I threw this out for discussion.

because everything i have learned on here through supporting others point to PNI being an illness and nothing to do with any unique personal circumstanses.... as suggested above

Yet their are some - like myself - who's past fragile mental health and circumstances has contributed to PNI ( it not to actually getting it but to how i dealt with it)

So I am constantly in a dichotomy over this issue.

I wanted discussion to see how everyone else felt .

I suppose the way I actually feel is quite offended - that to suggest that somehow existing situations account for all women getting PNI is suggesting it is 'our fault' and not a specific and self limiting illness as I think /am certain it is

But that it is just a product of other stuff in womens lives - which I do not think at all it is.

I hope you understand what I am saying as i am tieing myself up in knots here - and always do when this topic is discussed?

[Veritee]

Sorry to labour this - but I have spent the last 18 years of my life trying in my own way to understand PNI so this is VERY important to me....

I think what I truly believe at this point - and it could change - is that :

PNI is a very specific and self limiting illness that occurs after a birth and can happen to absolutely any women regardless of the above suggested factors!!

That in my case while I do have factors like the above - but that they did not cause my PNI - just made the experience of PNI more complicated

That if there are any specific indicators to whether you will get PNI they have not been found yet and they are not factors such as :

difficult early life,'minority status, family violence, social isolation, language problems, housing or financial difficulties, cigarette, alcohol or drug use, developmental disability, bereavements or other losses'
(and it is not just an opinion it, has been based on talking with women with PNI for over 10 if not more years)


But that because I do have almost all the above I personally am not a good advocate for this opinion - or for PNI awareness

So in the face of an 'expert' from the Marce - I waver .... in what I know to be right ..

Because I am not a good advocate and because of this no one at all will EVER listen to me outside this forum. Due to my past..

I have tried so many times to put my views to the 'experts' who always seem to want to explain PNI as due to an individual woman's past or 'difficulties' as this is the easy option - blame it on the woman no one then has to consider the awful possibility that for more than 1 in 7 the 'natural' act of bearing a child makes them ill and it has NOTHING to do with anything else other than they have had a child and perhaps something that happens to some women psychologically when they do!!!!!!!!!!!

But if I ever try to be the advocate I want to be .... and try as I have in the past to put my view to HV, GPs, Psychiatrist even psychologists, perinatal experts..

the response has always been ..

But you do have a difficult past, you do have a history of mental ill health??? You do have had many of the above factors ....

So it is as if my own life experience proves the point - which of course it does not!!

So I feel crushed and impotent and give up

We need women like you Joanne who have not had this kind of past experience and can say without wavering or being confused because of past issues.....
That PNI for you you is not caused by anything but carrying and having a baby!!

Because i have found if you are a sufferer of PNI and want to advocate for sufferers to be heard - your own experience will be used and I have found in my case it mainly used to 'prove' that the theories that this is not a distinct illness but a product of existing mental and emotional issues.

This seems to be what the perinatal experts want to believe right now - and I wonder why?

The way perhaps theses factors do affect you if you have PNI is that once you have it, with theses factors you are more likely to be more vulnerable and need to seek out support and immediately you do theses factors will be cited as the cause of your PNI - and not just another factor that makes it harder to cope with and get through.

Just thinking on my feet here - I hope no one minds?

This is a HUGE issue! At least it is for me!!

[joannem]

Hi Veritee
Yes we understand what you are saying, to be honest I think PNI is a vile illness that does occur of its own accord but probably because at the time we feel so fragile, anything else that may have been lurking around probably comes to the forefront ?

I think my counsellor hit it spot on when she said -"its like your mind has all these drawers, different parts, work in one, relationships in another, health in another (put what you want in any drawer) then PNI comes along and rocks it all, the drawers and their contents fly out and you are left with one big heap on the floor to sort out!"
Hence everything gets muddled up and some things which you may think are due to PNI are something totally seperate!....Does this make sense??

I think I am rambling now, i think to sum it up whatever nasty causes this stinking, vile, evil, sickening, illness should be banished forever never to return and these so called experts will never have a bloody clue unless they have experienced it themselves!
AMEN!!
Sorry Veritee I get excited when there is hot debate like this!!!

[Veritee]

So do I - get excited that is
and it is esential to debate and disscuss this if we want to talk to these 'experts' and that is what I want to do

[cheshire]

Hi All,

I just feel that I do not know how to reply to the original post now I have thought about it. On the one hand I have had a previous episode of anxiety in my teens, but it was not like that which I experienced with PNI, which was MUCH more severe.

I also tick some of the boxes, but am sceptical that this can be the only cause (childhood issues and that listed above), but in my personal experience these factors did not help at all & with having a child seemed to be opened up for , not all, but for me to see. And this made things worse.

However, I still think hormonal and child birth (particularly if traumatic) are a factor. We are chemical beings and no-one understands the brain fully after all!!
I reacted badly to any hormonal intervention after no.2. You only have to read some of the leaflets about hormone treatment to know that imbalances can lead to what we know as symptoms associated with PNI. .

I know this is controversial and I could say more but I won't.

Hx

[cheshire]

s*d it one more point, yes I agree Veritee:



''That in my case while I do have factors like the above - but that they did not cause my PNI - just made the experience of PNI more complicated...........

i have found if you are a sufferer of PNI and want to advocate for sufferers to be heard - your own experience will be used ...........

The way perhaps theses factors do affect you if you have PNI is that once you have it, with theses factors you are more likely to be more vulnerable and need to seek out support and immediately you do theses factors will be cited as the cause of your PNI - and not just another factor that makes it harder to cope with and get through.''


(sorry about that , my connection playing up, trouble copying pasting etc.)

[owensmum75]

I have to say I've never had any depression issues before I had Owen. My PNI was purely down to a bad birth experience. Although I can see how past experience can influence the present.

Em x

[racinggirl]

For me this is a difficult one. In the two years before I had my DD, my closest friend died very suddenly and I suffered a miscarriage. Although I naturally grieved for my friend and baby, I suffered no depression or anxiety following these events.

However when I developed PNI I feel the anxieties about my health were fuelled by the loss of my friend. She was a single mum leaving a young son and I was petrified that the same would happen to me.

So I guess even though I believe my PNI was largely due to the combination of a traumatic birth experience and the huge drop in hormones post delivery, previous life events definitely had an influence on the way I felt.

I agree with helenr, this is going to be an interesting one!

racinggirl x

[caterina]

I disagree with this one girls, none of those factors apply to me..my PNI and possible antenatal depression was caused solely by carrying and delivering my baby. I have no past history of anxiety/depressive illness and no underlying social issues (except that I lived above a noisy shop when I was preg and it drove me crackers but no serious issues!) I have no violence, language problems, etc. Life has been pretty good to me so far. I was never 'in trouble long before that'
I think PNI is a hormonal thing and if you have a history of depression it may affect you but it can also cripple the most psychologically sound woman (I don't mean that in a derogatory sense to those who have had problems, it's the only way I can think to phrase it).
As for depression being a whole life experience I can honestly, hand on heart say that for the first 25 years of my life until I had my child I did not have depression of any sort. Totally disagree with these sweeping generalisations.