Re: Am I losing my mind?

[Vikki]

I think I have lost my marbles, I keep imagining truly awful; things happening.

It used to be just nightmares, but now I'm thinking of these things in the daytime.

Today I pictured that I had my daughter in the sling, and man came up to me, twited her head an broke her neck.

I saw myself running after him, her head lolling from side to side as she lay dead on my chest.

HOW DO I STOP THIS?

pPLease help me

Vikki

[Bear24 not logged on]

Hi Vikki

I'm so sorry you are going through this - I know what it's like to suffer from horrid thoughts.

Are you being treated for PNI?

I am being treated by a Psychiatrist for my PNI. I am taking Zoloft which is gradually causing the thoughts to go away. Some people don't need meds, they can get control of their thoughts by using Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT). I believe a Psychologist can help you with that. However in my case the intrusive thoughts were so severe that I had to go onto meds.

I would suggest you speak to your doctor asap and see if they can help you, or ask to be referred to someone who specifically deals with PNI. Don't be afraid to tell them what's going on in your head. I was worried that I would be locked up forever and would never see my baby again! But I found that my doctor and Psychiatrist were very understanding and kept telling me that these thoughts are being caused by the illness and are not the real me.

Hope this helps,
Bear24

[Veritee]

Dear Vikki

And welcome to this site. I think you have come to the right place to begin to get some support on this.

However as I say later you should also seek professional help by going to your GP.

No you are not going mad. You are suffering from one of the most common, distressing but least talked about symptoms of PNI.
As Bear said, these thoughts are not caused by you but by your illness.

Do you have any other symptoms or is this the only one you are aware of at this time and how long has this been happening?

I suffered this symptom very badly. I had other symptoms of PNI but I could handle them and had I not had the thoughts would have got through it relatively easily, but the thoughts were unbearable.

Apart from the guilt at having such thoughts about my lovely baby, I was also terrified they would suddenly become reality and either I or someone else would snap and do these awful things to her

This NEVER happens!! My child is now 15 and fine and in the many years I have been talking to women with PNI I have never heard of anyone acting on these thoughts or being negligent/careless/distracted enough to let any horrible accident happen and of course noone is going to snatch your baby from a sling and do horrible things.

In fact women with PNI are over vigilant and over protective towards their children. This adds to the stress for the mother and leads to loss sleep lack of relaxation etc and makes everything worse but because the woman with PNI is forever on duty protecting their child it means that there is little chance of a child having an accident or anyone else causing them harm and people who abuse their children do it for totally different reasons.

In fact, as I’ll get to later the thoughts are thought by some, to be due to what becomes an obsessive desire to keep your child safe and fear that you can not.

Unfortunately women with PNI are far more likely to harm themselves than their children)(

My thoughts started with accidental harm to my lovely baby such as I would drop her from my arms or the sling and her head would hit something hard and split open like an egg through to others doing horrible things to her as your thoughts are to my harming and killing her in many bazaar ways.

I believe my thoughts - and perhaps others with PNI - to be due to my overwhelming love for her and my desire to keep her safe - but not feeling strong enough to protect her.

Because of PNI this led to my being obsessed by the thought of harm coming to her and eventually I felt that if I was not 'good enough' or 'strong enough' to keep her safe perhaps the threat was actually from myself? Hense the thoughts that I would harm or kill her.

This is how I saw it but unfortunately no research has been done to verify the cause.

One of the reasons I started this site was to give women a place where they felt safe to begin to talk about this and other horrible symptoms of PNI, which they needed so badly to discus but were sacred to.

When I had these symptoms many years ago, this symptom was rarely discussed and professionals did not realise this happened except in all but the wmost severe cases.

Because I was a professional youth worker at the time working with disturbed and abused children I was used to listening to bizarre and disturbing thoughts from others so when I had these thoughts I tried to tell my Health Visitor etc and the response was far from helpful

They just did not know this happened in women like me who were not hospitalised for PNI but still in fact functioning well and indeed still holding down a stressful job as a youth worker (see my story on www.pni.org.uk/pnifram.htm/ click on ‘stories’)

But I eventually found the embryonic Internet and found I could talk to women who had had this and other symptoms and so I started this site.

However I did not start the site for it to be used instead of professional treatment.

The site is to give any woman with PNI additional support so my first suggestion to you is that you go to the GP and tell your HV – in fact this must be your first step if you have not done this already.

Things have moved on since I first had PNI and you WILL NOT get the reaction I had and with luck you will get a doctor who understands something of PNI. If your doctor is not as helpful as you would like ask to see someone else within the practice. ( If they do not know much about PNI – perhaps you could direct them to this site? or print out this reply and others from this site – some people have found this useful to do rather than explaining how they feel verbally)

Also in some areas there are specialists in this available.

Unfortunately it really depends on where you live but ask your doctor if there is a PNI/PND specialist available, they are sometimes called prenatal specialists.

The treatment offered is medication, counselling, cognitive therapy psychotherapy and support. Support is often done by a CPN.

There is no one cure - what works for one will not for another and visa versa.

Some have used alternative therapies with some success, their are many posts on hear about this.

I got through PNI without medication for my own reasons but this is not a path I advise as having medication can short cut the illness and help it to go quicker.

Unfortunately the thoughts are often the last thing to go.

In the meantime one way of dealing with them which many have found helpful is when you get the thoughts, try not to panic, nothing is going to happen so make sure your child is safe ie depending on age, in a cot, playpen – I do not really like these but they do have their uses, asleep, with someone else, playing with toys, watching a video. If you can find someone to be with, this helps some I actually did not find this helped as the thoughts still continued and I had to then try to make conversation but I just could not explain the thoughts to anyone when they were actually happening, maybe put on some music you find relaxing ( others find it better to put on some loud dancing music and maybe have a dance ) relax and just try to let the thoughts wash over you. In themselves the thoughts are not going to do any harm, it is your reaction to them that do the harm - such as your guilt, panic, feeling you are not a good mother or even mad or a monster.

Most find it does not help to try and stop the thoughts as this si the trouble with these thoughts, they come unbidden and you can not stop them. If you could they would not be a problem! So trying to stop them does not work so you can either let them wash over you or another approach is to actually go along with them and let them go as far as they are going to go, I know someone who used to ‘out think’ them. She wouold deliberately think the most disturbing scenarios she could! I do not recommend this but for this women it gave her control. I.e. the thoughts did not come by themselves go in their own direction – she could not stop them coming but she controlled what direction they went in.

Anyway we all have to find a way that helps and comforts us when we have these thoughts.

I have said enough for now and I do hope this site can help you get through this

All the best

Veritee

[AC]

Veritee,

Just a question that i was wondering if you could answer.

Have you spoken to Caja about your PNI,and told her about the thoughts you had when you were suffering so badly ?

I just wondered how she reacted,if she understood what you were teling her etc.

I sometimes wonder if my son will remember what a miserable cow i am a lot of the time,i know he is still really young,but i can remember a few things when i was young,(i may have been a little older than him)

Did you choose to tell her about it all or did she ask you about it ?

If you would rather not talk about it,thats fine.

Alison x

[Vikki]

I have been seeing the GP regarding this for quite a while now, and all he seems to do is put me on different ad's.

This is the 4th lot I have tried, all the others were similar, and this one is completly different apperentl;y, and should at least let me sleep.

But even though I have told the GP I am having these thoughts, I have never told him what they are like specifically.

Should I tell my HV, I find her a bit easier to talk to.

I think I would like to see somone else , but I feel embarrassed to ask the doctor. I feel like if he thought that was the best option, then he would recommend it.

I don't just have the thoughts about my baby. I also see harm coming to my son, but not to my eldest daughter interestingly.

I also see myself having a fatal accident, or commiting suicide.

I don't feel suicidal, but the thoughts scare me at the detail I go to plan things.

How far can a HV intervene, she did speak to the GP on my behalf once, as I was frightened he would turn me away saying I was just a tired new mum.

Would she be able to suggest to the Gp that I see someone else?

Now I have to go through another set of AD side effects. I just want one that works.

Thank you

Vikki

[Veritee]

Hi AC

I do not mind you asking at all

But I can not explain in a few words so bear with me.

We all handle things differently and what is right for one family and one mother and child may not be for another so I can only tell you what I did.

I have always told Caja everything and shared my emotions with her. I have always been completely open with her.

However I will say this sharing is only to the limit of her understanding at any one time or at any one age.

Of course I did not subject a 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,10 year old etc to a barrage of information she could not understand and I did try not to subject her to my extreme distress - although obviously sometimes it was unavoidable - but I would not try to hide my tears or that I was upset and I would explain as best I could , on her level, why.

I never shut her out from what was going on for us as a family and I did let her know I was not well. At first I would tell her that mummy shouted or cried or whatever because her head was not very well but this did not mean I did not love her.

As she got older I explained more fully when appropriate to do so and I always apologised when and if my behaviour was over the top due to PNI and explained why. I would explain that this happens to some mothers when they have children and I would get better in due course.

As she got older I told her a little of how PNI made me feel ie my self worth and not always feeling up to the job of being a mother. She actually used to find this amusing as she considered me a very strong person!

.
When I was ill this was one of the things social workers etc criticised me for. Trying to usher her out of the room if I became upset and cried when they were about, telling me if showed I was upset or anxious it would make Caja upset and anxious.
The even suggested that her failure to thrive (which turned out to be her heart anyway) was due to me showing my emotions round her.

I thought then and still do that this was complete rubbish. In my opinion Caja and I were always close enough for her to know when I was upset of anxious even if I went out of the room to cry etc or hid it. I believe hiding it with no explanation would have upset and made her anxious.

So I thought then and certainly do more now that they were completely wrong to tell me not to cry etc in front of her. In my family we share how we feel and you can do that at any age at the level you understand.

There was no way that with my husband away for long periods and Caja and I being and living so closely that she would not pick up that I was upset.

It was my feeling that for us to shut her out of this would be scarier than including her at a level she could understand.

continued below as too long

[Veritee]

continued:

As to the thoughts?

Of course I did not tell her when she was very young that I was having thoughts of killing her or accidentally dropping her, or her being hurt by strange men etc


For a start most of the worse of these thoughts happened when she was very young, before she was 3 and their would have been no point in frightening her with this.

Especially as deep down however scary they were for me - and however much I would panic I would lose control I actually knew on another level that I would never harm Caja.
As she got older I did tell her that I sometimes had horrible thoughts and when I did she should try to leave me quiet for a bit.

She now at 15 does know much of the details of these thoughts.

However just to show that Caja did not escape entirely unscathed and that really small children are affected by things - I did I feel make one mistake with this when I was having thoughts not about her but about harming myself and I got quite out of control one day verbally.

While I never did anything physically I must admitt at times I expressed my feelings verbally. A lot of the time I would go up the stables and screem but sometimes I lost control in front of Caja. I am sorry this happened but I really could not help it so I refuse now to feel guiltyfor what is past.

While I beleve in including children in emotions this does not mean I felt it was right for me to scream horrible stuff in the presence of a child under 2, I was just so alone and completely unable to help it at the time.
I had at the time a fear of having knives around as I would have horrible thoughts about cutting myself or her.( I never did anything though and did not actually feel like doing it just had these thoughts)

This one time Barry was away and I was really suffering and Caja was playing up, she was probably about 2. I suddenly lost verbal control and started saying stupid things I think like 'I am going to cut my head off with a knife right now'

I had also said similar things before during really bad moments, usually about hurting myself and at one time I threw all the knives in the house down a mine shaft - which Caja knew about.

I should have explained when I had calmed down but was too ashamed to explain about the knife thing so I did not.

Caja does not remember this or any incident like this specifically but she does have a slight phobia about knives.

She is very careful when handling them as she is scared they will cut her and if anyone waves a knife or the point of scissors near her she winces. This is getting better as she gets older but I think she will always have problems with sharp knives.

I am pretty sure this is because of what I said. I regret it but it is past and we now have to live with her fear. However I think a factor in why it has left its mark is because I did not explain about my fear of knives and why I said what I did.

I was too ashamed to explain and I think if I had tried she may not be like this about knives now.

Every child is different and every family and mother is different and we all have different beliefs on bringing up children, but I have always believed that for us inclusion works best.

For instance as we are older parents and also tragically lost a lot of friends ( I went to a funeral yesterday in fact of a friend 15 years younger than me) we have had to go to a lot of funerals and Caja has always gone with us if she is off school and especially to family ones or when she knew the person.

She went to her first at about 8 months She has shared our grief and even read a poem at Barry’s dads funeral when she was 5.

On the other hand as I child I never went to any of my grandparents funerals and also that of a close family friend and I was never included in family upsets ie rows and heated discussion would go on behind my parents closed door and my mum would cry in the loo and I remember being very frightened and confused by all the tears the anger and upset around funerals or family issues and I always knew I would never exclude any children of mine from grief upset or emotions.

It struck me that not every one felt the same about sharing emotions with children, when I went with Caja to a funeral of a wife of a friend of Barry’s who had died tragically and found their little girl the same age as Caja was not at the funeral!

They felt it was not appropriate for a child that age to be there as it might upset her – so I have a different way of thinking about this than that family!

So Caja has grown up knowing about my PNI and I can honestly say that because it was discussed openly, not made scary, worrying or confusing for her it has very little relevance in her life.

Now at 15 she seems to understand it quite well and has been to a few PNI related events with me and talked about how it was for her growing up and the funny thing is she considered her growing up perfectly secure and normal and the PNI figures hardly at all for her.

She even knows something of the thoughts I had about accidents and even about killing her but she seems to understand them for what they were. She has read the book I contributed to and some of my other stories.

I may be proved wrong if later she has personal problems because if it but I really think I would have seen some signs of this by now.

My accident in April 2003 affected her more than my PNI. When I was not able to look after her much due to being in hospital and bedridden she did show some signs of distress which are thankfully gone now – but she has never had any distress over the PNI.

It was the biggest thing in my life at the time but you have to remember it is not necessarily a big thing in your child’s life.
As long as your child is loved cared for, fed and has stimulation and appropriate activates your PNI will probably be very very low down on your child’s list of concerns.
Yes it can affect children but this is normally if the mother is so depressed normal caring such as the above does not take place and also I think if the child is left in the dark and things are not explained to them on their level.

Caja remembers very little at all about my having PNI while she can remember me telling her that I was not well she can remember none of the things that I was so worried would damage her

I was discussing with a friend some of the things I felt and did when Caja was young the other day and she was there so I asked her if she remembered any of it and was her childhood unhappy because of it.

She said all she remembers was having a loving mum and a happy childhood. She can remember that I shouted at times (but so do all mums I guess) but no incident specifically. She was also asked this a few weeks ago by another mum who currently has PNI and Caja said she remembers nothing of it.

So for me I think that honesty at the level of her ability to understand was the right thing to do. Apart from the fact I am someone who can not hide emotions and can not keep secretes I think it was a lot less confusing scary, and upsetting to include her.

Some women have told me that could not tell their children as they would be ashamed and guilty as I was about the ‘cut my head off incident. So I also have felt guilty at times and ashamed but I fight this now.

After all I only ever did my best under difficult circumstances and I refuse to be ashamed to share with my child facts about her childhood and my feelings.

Another factor for me is that she has the right to know – it is part of her history, her birth, her babyhood it is not mine not to share and also she could very well one day be a mother herself!

I want her to be a mother who is prepared. It does not mean that because I had PNI she will have it, but I want her to know what it is, how to get help and if she was a boy I would want him to know too so if the mother of his children suffered he would know how best to support.

Anyway I am not sure if I have answered what you were asking?

This is how I have handled it and there are many who would say I have been too honest with my daughter and in the past those who have tried to stop me being so.

But this worked for us and I always knew what was right for us.

All the best

Veritee

[Vikki]

Just a note to tag along behind veritee's.

I have always tried to hide my tears from my children, and others around me.

If my children have seen my cry, it seems to upset them, as they do not know why i am crying.

But a Nurse a my surgery said something that upset me the other day.

My daughter was well over due for her first vaccinatios. I had put them off because I was unable to be in the room when thay were done, as I new from experience that I would become very distressed.

My mother and I took her into the nurse's room, and then I said I wouuld wait in the waiting room.

The Nurse said that if I did this when the children were older, then I would give them a phobia of needles.

I thought me being in hysterics would be far more damaging. The childrenhave seen me have injections, and have bllod taken, they know there is nothing to be frightened of.

When I have taken the children for jabs, I have felt their cries go right through my body, as if I was hurting them. It upsets me so much.

I think honesty is the best policy, but if children are sensitive, then discretion is fine.

[Vikki]

CAn I ask whether you disscussed your thoughts with anyone in detail?

I recently to;d my husband one of the thoughts, and he hasn't commented, or said anything. I'm sure he thinks i'm a loony.

how do I broach the subject with my Gp?

I feel I would benefit from some further help, maybe seeing a counsellor, or someone suggested cognitive behaviour therapy. When I see the GP he just seems to adjust the ads, I don't think I can get throught his on medication alone.

Thanks

Vikki

[Veritee]

Dear Vikki

I have to admit that at the time I never discussed my thoughts in detail with anyone fact to face - not even my partner/husband at first, but did later and it really helped to tell him .

At the time over 13 years ago no one knew about how common these thought s can be and how horrendous. I am afraid any attempt to discuss them in detail led to panic from those I told. ( read my story on the main site) But things have changed now - thankfully.

I told my partner initally the rough outline and he was supportive - did not dismiss me as mad - but did not know what to do to help.

He did say everyone gets strange thoughts sometimes even of hurting others or horrible accidents but it was only because I was ill they had become obsessive and upset me (another partner on here responded like this too)

Your partner like mine is probably not judging you and thinking you are mad – her probably just does not know how to respond. Have you asked him. Ift is very difficult for those on the outside looking in.

At the time I only told my telephone counsellor about them in detail as she had had them too and my internet support friend at the time and later a psychotherapist who I introduced the subject gently to be sure I got the right response.

Since then I have told everyone and anyone who will listen!!!!!

on the web in general, on this forum, on TV, in a newspaper, and in a book, the details of these thoughts in the hope that those who are supposed to help mothers with PNI will be able to listen without panic to mothers with these kinds of thoughts ( at least 80% of those with PNI) and realise that this is a very common, but rarely talked about, symptom of PNI and that panicking about it will not help the mother and if the mother has thoughts of harming her child herself while she needs support she is VERY unlikely to do this, in fact quite the opposite.

But this is easy for me to do as my daughter has grown up safely and no one can now worry that I would do any harm to her or anyone else.

Things may have changed a little in that professionals are beginning to know more about PNI but I am not sure how much things have changed and what the response would be if you told your GP for instance.

We know about these thoughts on here but the site is run by non professionals and I think there is a long way to go before the medical, psychiatric and social service professions take notice of the knowledge we have accumulated.

Therefore I think you must use your own judgement about who you tell and how much you tell.

I think you do not have to tell the full details of the thoughts to everyone, if you do not wish to. It is possible to say what is neccessary to get support for them and to reserve the details of the thoughts for an appropriate person - perhaps later you will have counselling or psychotherapy and it is usually safe to explore these thoughts in a psychotherapy or counselling session and if you test the water with a counsellor or therapist and they can not take what you are saying I suggest you change your therapist.

It does seem like it would benefit you to have psychotherapy or counselling but I think you will have to ask your GP for it directly as it is more expensive to give than drugs and it will not be offered unless you ask normally.

To let him know why you think you need it by all means tell him you have obsessive thoughts about your child coming to harm and these are intruding on your life - but I would not at this stage tell him the details unless you really trust him to understand and give the right response.

I will add that while some gentle supportive counselling can be helpful at this stage sometimes you have to wait until you are feeling OK and stable before you have psychotherapy and this can throw you back into the worse symptoms while you explore things.
On the other hand some like to do it when they are quite bad on the understanding that things can not get much worse!
I hope this answers your questions..

All the best

Veritee

[Vikki]

I have tried floatong through the thoughts, and going along with them tiol conclusion, but all this results in is a panic attack.

The visions at the moment have been plane related, which confuses me as I have never been on aplane.

Even writing the word plane brings a feeling of dread to the pit of my stomach, and I start to feel shaky.

Maybe it is the last few years of terrorist hijackings that have triggered this worry, but it is quite disturbing.

UI am going to try and speak to my HV and see if there is anything she can do. She has once before asked if I wanted to talk to her about the visions before, but I flt too ashamed to tell anyone.

Now I feel that I trust her, and would be able to speak to her about these things.

She has spoken to my GP before on my behalf, when I have been lacking courage.

If anyone is going to understand, it's going tio her isn't it?

I need to know that if I speak to someone about this, that they are not going to judge me.

Vikki

[Veritee]

Hi Vikki

It does sound to me that you can trust her to give you the right response.

These days more is understood about women having 'the what if thoughts' with PNI so the fear is not that they will act inappropriately when you describe what you are going through but that they will be personally judgemental which when you have PNI can be so horribly crushing.

You need approval and support and when you have risked telling someone something which even you are ashamed/guiltily/lots of feelings/ of the last thing you need is someone who then is judgemental.

However from what you describe I am sure you will be safe telling this HV and she seems more than ready to listen.
One of the most difficult things others will tell you on this site is to tell someone else the details of these thoughts face to face but this also does often start off the healing process.
I really believe that 'storytelling' and 'telling your story' is a great catalyst to healing which is why I encourage women to publish their story on this site.


Good luck with this

All the best

Veritee

[Vikki]

Why do these horrid things happen?

Why can't I let things go.

Today my childminder sent a message from my daughter's school that she said she was hungry and had not had breakfast.

My children always have breakfast, I don't have a lot of time, but I always ensure that they have had a breakfast bar and a piece of fruit.

Sometimes the breakfast is sent to the childminder if I am in a particular time squeeze, but this comment sent meoff on a mad what if moment.

It escalated so much that I imagined that the social services came and took my children away because I didn't feed them.

I know this is totally irrational, and I know that there is no truth in this, but whilst I am seeing the story unfold, it had a hold of me, and I panic, feel sick and feel like there is no reality.

I can't bear to be alone,the thoughts are worst when thare is no noe to talk to.

I can't get in to a routine, the days just drift by as I wish the hours o float on until my husband comes home, and i can revert to a semi-normal life.

I am so confused, my life seems to shift from quite normal to times of complete chaos.

[jennie]

When my kids used to go to a childminder my daughter told me that the childminder never fed her or gave her a drink all day!(it was a lie)
Kids are such little monkeys, what you could do is speak to your daughter and tell her she'll get you into trouble telling stories like that,and also speak to the teacher.
ps I like your threads...not the empty shoe boxes!We also do that at the school and brownies....You are so right about doing something how ever small.....thank you...

[Vikki]

I chickened out of telling the HV.

She was running late, and couldn't stay for long, so I was a bit dissapointed as I had worked myself up to tell her.

I chickened out of telling the GP that ad's aren't working too.

Why can't I say what I want to.

Vikki