When do the thoughts go????

[Guest]

Hello everybody,

I discovered this website yesterday and it was such a relief to finally realise that I am not the only one who is having a difficult time of it due to PND.

My baby is 6 months old, she is absolutely gorgeous and yet at the moment I can't enjoy her properly because of these irrational, scarey fearful thoughts that pop into my head and terrorise me. I am starting to learn to live with them but it is a constant battle.

I first became aware that I may have PND when R**** was 4 months. It was just after Christmas and I had a panic attack on the motorway. Luckily, I managed to pull over on the hard shoulder, however, it was a really frightening experience 'not being in control' and from then on it just spiralled. I went to the Doctor in the New Year and I told him I was petrified that I was going mad, he reassured me that I wasn't (although I still wasn't convinced) and he put me on anti depressants. He told me I had a hormone imbalance and that my seratonin levels had dropped. The first type of anti depressants he put me on made me feel more anxious (can't remember the name), so I had to go back. I have now been on EFEXOR (VENLAFAXINE) for 6 weeks. I do feel calmer and I haven't had a panic attack since (thankfully) but the THOUGHTS still pop into my head .... when will they go?? I think I thought that once I had been on the anti depressants for a few weeks I would feel better and wouldn't be a prisioner to these horrendous thoughts (I know that's probably being optimistic but I just desperately want to feel normal ... ish!! and get on with my life again).

The doctor also referred me to a CPN, that was about as much use as .... a chocolate teapot. He confirmed that I wasn't going mad and told me to keep challenging the negative AUTO thoughts. That was about 7 weeks ago and I am finding it exhausting challenging these thoughts. It's all very well a man giving you that advice but it doesn't take away the absolute fear you feel when you get them, does it!!! Needless to say, I haven't heard from him since and my health visitor has also been very little use. She told me that she is not an expert in PND!!! I can't believe how little support there is for women suffering from this cruel illness. I have been going to see a Cognitive Behaviour Therapist which has set us back 300 quid so far (but I don't care, I just want to be cured). It has been helpful but I think it's more of a long term solution because it's about addressing issues such as a lack of self esteem, negative thinking etc, which I know I have been prone to from quite a young age, for various reasons.

If, sorry WHEN I get better I think I will deserve an oscar for my performance during this illness. I remember Fern Britton on This Morning (British TV programme) calling it the Smiling Illness because you try desperately hard to mask how you feel and over compensate for the absolute misery and despair you feel inside. You desperately want to be normal so to all intents and purposes you 'appear' normal to the outside world and yet you are panicking for England inside that you are going mad. I force myself to go to mother and baby groups etc and I know the women there would be suprised if they knew I was suffering from PND because I am chatty and smiley outwardly, because I am normally a fairly outgoing person but at the moment I don't really know the 'real' me because of this illness.

I better stop now, I've waffled on enough. Thanks for reading this it would give me a lot of encouragement to hear from anyone else who is struggling at the moment or anyone who has come through the other side, perhaps you could shed some light on how long you have to live with these thoughts .... do they go eventually???

Guest

[Lisa Nurse]

Dearest Guest

I know exactly how you feel you poor little thing, if only you knew just how well you will feel in a few months the sheer panic will fade as quickly as it comes.

I started with post natal depression three weeks after my little girl was born, apparently they say it is a mix of lack of sleep, terrible births, chemical imbalance and a sensitive nature. Not sure whether this is right but hey I have all these things.

What it is is you see all the dangerous things that could hurt the most precious thing in your life and you start to worry that these things might happen, either by yourself or by someone else (it was mostly by myself that I worried about!) I had to get my husband to hide knives, could not boil water, could not bath my baby because of the fear of doing these things.

I know now why the thoughts appear because as stated it is because you are so frightened of losing your baby and they are so precious to you. Lets face it if we did not care about their safety and welfare they would not come into your head in any respect.

I tried lots of things to overcome the problem and the best thing for me was to constantly tell my husband every horrible thought that popped up and then the panic. If I had visions of throwing her threw the window I would tell my husband and he would say, that's awful but hey I have thoughts like that sometimes aren't they awful. It got so every time I told my hubbie I felt slightly better but then would think of an even worse one. This never fazed my husband one bit which I was shocked about and he was excellent (I think he knew that it would go and by him constantly helping me it would go quicker). So we both worked on it and we go through it.

I feel brilliant now and I cannot think of anything so wonderful than motherhood. MY baby is now 10 months old and I would say that the horribilest of thoughts have now gone for good but I get the odd one but the best thing is you do not panic and you think ooh that was awful but just dismiss it as quickly as it comes and you do not get that hot sweat and fear of total uncontrol of yourself.

All I can say is take time out to deal with the problem and get as much help from your family and your friends (one of my bestest friends I met throught his website and we will now be friends forever). I talked and talked and talked until I was blue in the face about the problem and this did me so much good (I think my friends thought they were agony aunts in the end but what are friends are for and I would do it for a complete stranger like you!).

I tried some tapping and some raiki which helped in the interim but then I thought this nasty illness is going to go on its one as quickly as it came.

As I say Jessica Mary is now 10 months old, is beautiful, my relationship with my hubbie is now back to full strength and we are all going ski-ing with all the family next weekend for a lovely holiday.

That will be you in the next few months, as I say, it will take its time but you will get over it and that is a promise (You will learn to dismiss the thoughts as quickly as they come and remember talk talk and talk to everyone (Inlcuding the girls at mother and baby and a few of them will probably feel the same!)

Take care of you and your georgeous baby, every minute, every second of the day you are getting better, just like I have done!!!!!!!!!

Lots of Love Lisa and Jessica Mary
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Please feel free to email me on [e-mail] or work on [e-mail]

[Veritee]

These thought are so horribly scary - and all so common - even 12 years ago I can remember them as clear as day. One time I went out and threw every knife in the house down a mine shaft - I live on an old Cornish mine - so when my husband came back from sea 4 weeks later I had been trying to cut veg with the side of a fork!*!

I did not ‘challange’ these thoughts. A female counselor I had said to let them wash over me, neither try to banish them or dwell on them, just acknowledge them.
This worked the best for me although all I wanted at the time was for them to stop, which did not happen for some time.

When I had them I found it helpful to e mail my internet support person with some of the detail of what was happening. This did not make them go away but helped the fear.

As to how long before they went. They did not stop overnight just a slow and gradual lessening of the severity and length until one day I realised they had not happened for some time.

My thoughts were about me or or someone else harming my baby or a fatal accident - but everyone has different thoughts unique to you often but mostly the worse thing you can imaging happening

- ranging from fears of accidents or illness to you your baby or family, fear of sexual abuse to your child/ren even by yourself, fear that you are ging mad and you may lose control or you will chrash the car, or thoughts that make no sense at all and chant and go round your head in the back ground

For me my thoughts of harm coming to Caja were not prompted by my wanting to harm my baby but the opposite by fear she may not survive and the enormity of caring for such a small vulnerable life.

So it is so cruel that these thoughts so often include thought of you harming this life you care for so much. I was so convinced I was not up to the task, I started to feel that is she was at risk - I must be one of those risks - I hope this make sense?

Anyway whatever the reasons for these thoughts I never did anything but protect my daughter and nor has anyone else over the years I have heard from who has had these thoughts. But my heart goes out to any one having to deal with this. They do go, but it is a painful experience for anyone to go through

All the best

Veritee

[Guest]

Thanks Lisa & Veritee for the replies. I really want to believe it when you say I will get better but I am not convinced, I feel like I am going mad!

I really thought I was getting better, but the last few days have been a real struggle and today has been one of the hardest yet. I sometimes wonder if I really do have PNI or whether I am losing the plot because sometimes I get thoughts not just about my baby but about my husband (although we've always had a fairly smooth (ish) relationship i.e. it's never been violent) and even hitting my dog!!!! (who I love to bits even more than my husband .... only joking!!!). I don't know if it is all part of the illness and it is my mind playing tricks on me? I have just come back from Tescos, it was a real effort. One of my biggest fears is that I will start hitting people?? and then I'll be locked up and taken away from R*** Incidently, the last time I hit somebody was when I was 11 yrs old and I was being picked on by a girl called R*****l, and that was in self defence. I know I am trying to sound all light hearted but I am really petrified. I almost feel like I don't want to go out because I might be a liability to other people and yet I don't want to become a prisoner in my own home. I have got it into my head that I am being taken over by a dark force which will make me do things against my will. I know this sounds so far fetched, I keep telling myself that people don't become possessed they have to be evil in the first place and why should it happen to me at the age of 32 when I have never had a history of evil behaviour. Please somebody out there reassure me that this is post natal depression and that I will get better. Also, for the record is there any connection with me having a bad day (s) and the fact that I am due on (sorry to share personal details with you all!! but you know what it is like after you've had a baby, nothing is sacred!!).

Hope to hear from someone soon,

Guest

[Veritee]

HiGuest
You are not going mad and you are certainly not evil!
What you say is so familiar. Especially what you say about the link to you period being due and the thoughts. I had this too as do many others.
Even after I was better I would get a slight flash back to this when my period was due.

The fact others have been through it does not make it any easier but it may stop you beliving you are mad or evil. Plesase do not punish yourself for these thoughts - you do not deserve this, if anything when it happens pamper yourself - be kind to yourself.

When these thoughts are going through your head it does feel like you are somehow possessed. (I have often thought that perhaps even the concept of possession and witches could be traced back to women who had PNI - a bit far fetched maybe but a friend of mine doing a masters on history/women and witch craft is researching if there is any connection between the fear of witches and PNI. It is certain that PNI is not a new thing and has been around as long as childbirth)

Anyway that was a bit off subject - but I really did feel that somehow the thoughts were coming from outside but I WAS not psychotic - it is something else. I have only ever found women who have had PNI have understood what I meant.

They do go - is these anyone there with you today who you may be able to tell - describing it to someone can help. As long as they can cope with it and not panic. I allways tried to be with someone when I had these thoughts, even if I did not tell them just not being alone with my baby/child helped. Do you have a telephone counsellor from APNI you can phone when the thoughts get really bad?

Let me know if you are OK - I really want to know

Veritee

[Guest]

Thanks so much for your concerns Veritee. I am ok honest, I think/hope I am starting to learn to deal with the thoughts, although yes, today has been a particularly difficult day.

I have had my husband at home but I think he is floundering a little bit. My Mum came with me to the supermarket, to give me some support and make sure I didn't hit anyone!! (only joking, this is one of my irrational thoughts!!). It's difficult though as I don't want to over burden my Mum as we lost my Dad to cancer just over 2 years ago, so she has got her own issues to deal with. However, saying that I have told her the full extent of the feelings/thoughts that pop into my head - so she knows what I am up against.

I do contact a mother for mothers helpline from time to time but they are obviously not available at weekends. There just seems to be a lack of support in my area for women suffering from PNI. The support group I contact on the phone is 30 miles away (that's the nearest PNI support group), my health visitor has no real understanding of PNI which makes me feel almost paranoid, my Doctor is supportive, but once again has little knowledge of PNI & I do go to a Cognitive Behaviour Therapist who is helpful but a man (we won't hold that against him!, but he obviously has no personal experience of what I am going through).

When (that's positive, I wrote 'if' earlier) I am tempted to set up my own support group for other sufferers, although I know that's probably going to be a long way off. I just can't imagine being free of those thoughts, so I am not sure if I would be able to help others, in fear of the thoughts reoccuring (I hope that doesn't sound selfish) but then again who knows how I will feel in a year or 2??? (I can't wait for that day, I am definitely wishing my time away). People (who don't know about my illness) say, treasure every moment when your baby is this age as it doesn't last forever, and yet I can't wait for her to grow up so I will hopefully be rid of these thoughts.

Going back to other people who can support me during this time, I am very, very selective on who I tell, hardly any of my friends know. I suppose I feel a little bit ashamed and also a bit paranoid that if they know, they may watch me like a hawk with my baby. I do find it very reassuring contacting people who are going through similar experiences as me but as I said I don't actually personally know anyone locally (well it is still something that is quite taboo and I couldn't admit to it at mother & baby groups because I don't feel other people understand, unless they have or are going through it).

Thanks for caring and don't worry I will hang on in there I owe it to Rosie. She may be part of the reason that I am going through this but I don't blame her and I do really believe that she will be the one person who will get me through this bloody awful time (I am not saying it's not tough though).

Guest

[Lainey]

Hi Guest

You really are not evil, mad or going insane. This was exactly how I felt this time last year. I was so frightened for my sanity that I could not watch the news in case there had been any murders or horrible things happening - I believed I was going to be locked up.

I had awful thoughts towards my daughter and hated myself with a vengance. But I also had bizzare thoughts about my boyfriend, my parents - really anyone I cared deeply about. I hated cooking as it meant using knives and I dreaded going into my kitchen. (I have always loved cooking).

I even remember going on a Christmas Party to London with a group of friends. I put on a wonderful act but was absolutely panic stricken. When we were having drinks in the bar after the show, I kept thinking I was going to chuck my drink over my friend. How bizzare. The most ridiculous thoughts come into your head and it is so very frightening, and you are right you cannot ever imagine it going away - are you always going to feel like this - it is so agonising isn't it.

Well as Veritee and Lisa have both said - it they do go away in time.

I try to look at it like in the beginning the thoughts took over my mind and I couldn't control them - the PND was stronger than me. But now I feel that I am stronger than the PND and when I do get a strange little thought it is as if the PND is trying to push its way back but cause I am stronger than it I can dismiss it without a second thought. This will happen to you Guest - you must believe it.

I think that by telling people how you feel is also a great help - it is so hard to suffer alone with these horrid thoughts.

Its incredible that when you read people's stories they are soooo similar to your own. So just remember this is nothing to do with your sanity or being possessed. You are unfortunately suffering from a pig of an illness.

Take care Guest and remember to keep posting here. Just knowing you are not alone will give you strength and help you fight off PND.

With much love

Elaine
xx

[AC]

Hi Guest

I know exactly how you feel when you say you are selective about who Knows ! I am too,My mum and dad know in my family and that is it,it helps that the rest of my family are in Essex and my mum and dad are here in Cornwall.So the rest of the family,dont really see me that often,but im sure if they lived here too,they would guess,as some days I am very low.

Again just as you said.I feel ashamed and i also think that people will be watching me with my son.There is a real Stigma attached to PND,and to anyone outside the illness,they would tell you to pull yourself together.They dont realise that it isnt something you can just snap out of,you could feel great one day and terrible the next.For me,it is the awful negative thoughts,That i am useless,etc.

I have had a bad 3 days now.I am hopeing that tomorrow will be good.

[deborah]

Dear Guest
I too had 'scary thoughts' and was put on venlafaxine.
The thoughts will go when the dose of venlafaxine has been increased enough to stop them. venlafaxine works quite quickly you usually start to feel something positive within 2 weeks, by 3 you are aware its doing its job and by 4 weeks you see some improvement.

The dose has to be titrated though in incremental dosages. I was on the maximum dose of 395 before my thoughts went away but we are all different so you might need something different or lower for example.

CPN's as much as they are trained in GENERAL psychiatry are useless when dealing with women suffering with PNI. With respect to them they are good at treating alcoholics, chronic illness etc but not a specialty like PNI.

Guest, please don't take too much notice about the 'challenging'' autothoughts. What PNI sufferers have is not the chronic forms of illness that other psychiatric patients suffer with. So all the cognitive behavioural thrapy in the world will NOT change a thing.
The symptoms women have are part of a spectrum of symptoms which are unique to PNI. CBT is for people who have chronic pschy illness due to a negative thought pattern eg anxiety which has started because of something from their past.
PNI is different because the 'anxiety' associated with it
is caused by your heightened perception/vigilence due to motherhood.
In other words you are on 'full alert' when you have a baby, and for some reason that 'alertness' becomes more acute. In part its mother nature making sure our baby survives its first year of life. In the past illness and 'natural' disasters kept the population under control.
All mothers from the beginning of time have been afraid of ''cot death' and illness to their baby etc.
For some reason (?who knows??) mums with PNI have that ''extra care/vigilence'' factor with their baby- and they imagine things happening or they ''see'' horrible events''/hear horrible thoughts'' in their minds and this is all part of this ''vigilence'' that PNI sufferers have alot of.
You are NOT going mad, but please be careful of anyone trying to ''train'' your thoughts which can be taken away with an increased dose of you medication.
You will eventually get you 'old self'' back but in a modified form- you are now a mother; not susan with a baby- a mum to a gorgeous baby.
I think this is the most underestimated part of motherhood/parenthood. The 'big' change we go through during pregnancy and birth. No-one prepares us do they? Its a major life-changing event but who is there to help us through it?
Please be reasured you will get better and the thoughts will go away, keep seeing your doctor and ask about an increase in the dosage of venlafaxine to see if it helps you. keep on writing to this forum! Lots of love and best wishes
Deborah xx

[deborah]

Guest i forgot to say my thoughts were horribly scary too.Don't be afraid to e-mail someone you could e-mail me if it helps. I run a support group and a helpline as i live in Derbyshire is that near to you??

My e-mail address is [e-mail]


Use it if you ever need to love deborah xx

[Lisa Nurse]

Dear Guest

Please please be assured that you will get better, do you know every minute of the day that is passing by (whether it is awful or not) you are getting better and better

Try and keep your mind as occupied as you can and sleep as much as you can.

I never took any of the drugs but if these help go for it. I did take sleeping tablets that the doctor gave me to help me sleep in between Jessica's feeds as I could not sleep because of the panic of the thoughts because I think sometimes when you try to relax they are at their worst.

Guest, all your thoughts that you are going through about Tescos and the like, we have all been through it. I remember going into a pub and having to come out because I thought I would throw a glass at some poor stranger (I have never been violent in my life and would rather hurt myself than anyone else). No doubt you will have had the thought because they are all similar thoughts. Remember every danger that you see you will see yourself doing it. You are just reversing the problem in your head and turning it around because you are so scared of the situation.

Get your mum to stay with you and help with your baby if she can (I know you said that she has her own problems but it might help her being occupied too!).

My father is an alcoholic and my mum was going through terrible circumstances when I was at my worst and we had all other problems at the time but don't worry about others (I know this is easy for me to say now but just concentrate on yourself at the moment).

Take each minute as it comes and like you say it is better when you are with someone. I also found that the thoughts were not as horrible when I had my baby with me than when she was not.

Do you worry about your baby sleeping with you in case of the pillows? Bet you do, we have all had that thought. Do you know what I bet every mother on this earth as had that thought.

The thoughts will definitely go away and will not be as strong. It is weird me giving you advice when I was as crippled as you 7 months ago. Please be assured that you will get better and you are not going mad and evil. Every evil horriblest thought came into my head and I would not hurt a fly. I deal with the elderly and I love them to bits and I cannot help them enough I love people and I am a social animal. I guess you are the same.

Keep talking and talking and get the medication. Talk to your Gp as much as you can so he knows.

My health visitor was not qualified in the illness but she came every week for one hour just to listen to my horrible evil thoughts which made me feel so much better, try and get her to do this. That is what she is available for. Do not be afraid to tell every single thought that comes into your head to your nearest and dearest because if they are a mother they will probably have had these thoughts too!

I still have the odd thought and I cannot believe that the thoughts will go entirely (try not to be scared by this because I am not otherwise I would tell you). The little thoughts I have now are such like pushing Jessica's face for no reason and things like that not particularly evil or frightening just stupid little things.

I know my friend suffered with the evilest thoughts just before her period came on so don't be alarmed and look forward to next week when you are through it.

As my friend taught me, for the next few hours time yourself and see how long you go without the evil thoughts (just the ones that really panic you) and eventually over the next few weeks the time will get lesser and lesser and it did for me and it will for you.

Keep your chin up and hey if you want to shout at someone in Tescos just pretend you are working there.

email if you want or telephone me at home 01482 669034 - I don't mind honest and even if I can help you a teeny bit this is getting you closer to become your little old self again with your beautiful baby!!!!!!!!!!

take care lovey - Lisa and Jessica Mary xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

P.S I am on my lunch hour and I now need a big choccie bar (you know for medicinal purposes) xxxxxxxxxxx

[Health Visitor]

Hi Guest
I am so sorry that you are getting an unacceptable level of care from your Health Visitor.
I am a Health Visitor and you can just write to me if you want to.
I know how hard it can be to confront professionals but there is no excuse for what you have had to endure. One of our roles, if we do not have the expertise, is to sign post you in the direction of help. I don't which area of the country you are in but you should have better.
The main thing now is that you are getting help at a price and I am glad that you are finding it helpful. It can be a long road to full recovery but each day you will gain in confidence with help and support. You can do it Guest and this forum will be full of people who will be keen to help you.

[Guest]

Thanks for your message. Yes, you're right I do feel pretty let down by the lack of support I have had, especially as I have been very pro active in asking for help.

My GP is fairly good, I went to see him on Monday and he has increased the dosage of my anti depressants from 75 mg to 150 mg (see earlier posting to see which type of anti depressant I am on). I did have to convince him that I needed an increase in dosage.

I told him that I was still struggling with 'the thoughts', they weren't becoming less if anything they seem to have become worse! I think that is probably because each time I try to dismiss a thought and eventually suceed my mind comes up with one that is even scarier, the latest being that I am being taken over by a dark force! (because I saw a medium on Friday - big mistake I know, although in her defence she didn't say anything negative, if anything there wasn't that much that was relevant to me, half the names she mentioned I didn't know or recognise!!!).

I think the thing is I so desperately want to get better and when I felt the tablets weren't working (i.e taking the thoughts away), I was reaching out for something that might give me comfort. My Dad died 2 years ago of cancer at the age of 56, he never saw me get married or see R**** born, I really miss him and I know I am probably still grieving for him. That is the reason I went to see this lady who supposedly has this gift. I don't mean to be narrow minded, I'm sure some people find comfort in it but because of the frame of mind I am in at the moment, I initially found comfort (for about 10 minutes) and then starting scaring myself with all sorts of thoughts such as the devil, dark forces and about being 'possessed (don't laugh!!, I know it sounds ridiculous).

Before I had this illness I would have been able to dismiss these thoughts completely, infact I don't think I would have thought them in the first place, as I have never done anything evil/nasty in my life, so why start now?, especially when I have a daughter who I want to bring up correctly and set a good example. I feel like I've opened a can of worms and I am desperately trying to get them back in and put on the bloody lid!! Still I suppose, if it hadn't been this it would have been something else.

Anyway I digress!!, I have been in contact with a Mother for Mothers helpline in Bristol, who are great but they are only available certain hours and are about 25 miles away from where I live.

I haven't heard from my Health Visitor for about 5 weeks, infact I will probably make an appointment to see her this week. Don't get me wrong it's not in my nature to make demands and complain. She is a nice lady, who did come to my house a couple of times about 8 weeks ago, to sit and listen. However, back then even though the thoughts were scarey I was at the start of this horrendous journey, I am now half way through and some days rather than getting easier it seems harder (especially with the latest 'dark force'!!!, my husband even tried to tell me he was Luke Skywalker and he would fight off the forces for me with his strobe!!! the mind boggles! .... bless, he does try to understand, still it doesn't always bring me much comfort when I am on my own during the day).

There are no support groups locally, I live in Weston-super-Mare, the nearest are in Bridgwater and Bristol. I will make the effort one day to go along but it would be good to have more support locally. Still no one ever said it would be easy. I just find comfort in the fact that one day ... when I come through all of this I am sure I am going to be a stronger person .... I've just got to keep believing that.

Also there is this fantastic website, which is definitely helping my sanity, thank you, thank you, thank you, I just feel sorry for you lot who end up reading this nonsense!! (but it does feel scarey to me but other times I do laugh at myself too, at least I've still got me sense of humour, just!).

Speak to you soon

Guest

[Julianne Nelson]

Hello Guest
I read your thread and realised how similiar in was to my own experience. I too had horrible thoughts and still occasionally do. Like yours mine were never just about my twins. It was a very frightening time. I too thought I was going mad.

It was only constant reassurance from other people that convinced me that I wasn't. I too had panic attacks which believe it or not I'd forgotten about until I read your thread. I find that now I don't have the thoughts unless I remember about them, Does that make sense? Like you I was put on venaflaxine when the twins were 6 weeks old.

They are now 18 months and I am comming off them. Initially I just took them and hoped they would just numb me and they did there job until I felt ready to try and deal with my problems. Which it sound like you already have by going to therapy, for a long time I just wanted to ignore it in teh hope it would go away. so well done for facing this horrible illness head on. Could you imagine if they did give out oscars to all the pnd sufferers, the ceremony would last weeks!!!!!! Just remember this is only temporary, you can and will get throught it ;D

[Caroline]

Hi Guest

I just wanted to tell you that you're not writing "nonsens", in fact it is your words and those of the other women in this forum that at some times are the only ones that make "sense" to me.
Even though I don't have many of these weird thoughts (any more) I feel for you and encourage you to believe that you ALREADY are a strong person.
Sorry, but I found your husband's remark with Luke Skywalker quite funny - even though that doesn't really help you, I know.

Take care, Caroline