scary thoughts

[WileyKit]

i have felt really down this evening. i coped ok without my boyfriend all day. but when everything was over i collapsed (emotionally). when i am feeling particularly bad i have these thoughts about my tummy being sliced open, and my daydreams all revolve around knives. even the scariest ones have men breaking into my house and attacking my with an axe. sorry to blurt all this out. i was upset so rang my boyfriend, i have never told him about these thoughts before. he made me feel lots better, though telling him made me sob and sob.
on the plus side, my baby's seemed happier today than he has for ages. maybe he was just missing his mummy.
what do i do to stop these thoughts? i thought my medication was working (well, it was an improvement) but this is just how i was before the meds, and, coincidentally, the last time i had to take care of anything on my own.
please help, i am so confused. x

[WileyKit]

hi,
I would say that your body has got used to the dosage and maybe needs upping now. Not a proffessional though but seems like that way as i know they rather up them than change them and i did some research and they say that your body does become accustomed to the dosage and sometimes not enough.
Hope this helps
Sharon

[deborah]

Dear Wileykit,
Do you find you are worse in the evenings?
Sometimes the PNI symptoms are worse at night some of it because yuo are tired and some of it because you tend to'relax' a bit because you know the baby is in bed asleep (in most cases) and the other children (where applicable)are asleep[. It leaves you with time to reflect and think abuot everythng. During the day our adrenaline gets us through it because we have life to get through, people to see kids to care for.

This is a common finding in women who have PNI.
So that's why the thoughts are worse.
Talking to someone caring is good. I know it makes you cry and cry and afterwards it sems there is no relief from what is wrong and talking about it when you have PNI doesn't make it better in your feelings inside would anyone agree? I certainly found this. Until i had effective medication to get me on an 'even keel' emotionally.
The scary thoughts centre around your security, now you have your baby. They are completley normal when you have PNI.
PNI is a strange illness. But it terrifies all women as it leaves us feeling as if we are going mad, which we are not.
Medication will sort this out i promise.
What are you taking? and How much? For how long?
Let us help you.I'll leave it here for now and go on chat to see who is there. Perhaps we can talk , if not post again on here and lets see how we can get you sorted ok?
Try not to worry, help and advice, suggestions are here together with importantly support.
Lots of love
Deborah xx

[WileyKit]

hey. thanku, i am feeling a bit better, scared because i thought this bit was behind me.
to answer your questions?
I am on 20mg of Fluoxetine, i have been on it for 3 weeks. it made me more "awake" almost immediately, cleared the fog. and kept the mood stable for a couple of weeks, but i feel like i'm slipping down again. i would say how i'm feeling and my thoughts are because i am completely on my own at the moment. i was so stressed, even before my boyfriend went. these 3 days feel like they're forever. please tell me i'm not going crazy. should i tell the doctor about my thoughts? i am worried he will think i'm a mental case, and that i shouldn't be looking after a baby. maybe i shouldn't be. he got to the end of the day ok, though. these thoughts mostly happen when i am on my own, and that is usually in the evening. but they can slip in anytime. it isn't every day, but every time it comes back it always feels worse. i have eyed up the knoves in the kitchen, i even know which one is my favourite. i am scared the thoughts will take over and i'll do something stupid.
x

[deborah]

Wileykit,
The advice i give to women about PNI is this:
if your antidepressants are not working see you GP and get them changed or increased at first.
You have been on prozac for 3 weeks so some improvement should be made which you say it has. However you may need something else instead.
Keep on the dose do not stop it or anything like that and make an appointment with your GP.

Tell him/her what is happening.Your GP will NOT think you are mental.You're not. You have an illness just like any other illness only this one affects your mind and emotions.
Gp's see this all of the time believe me.
They see al kinds of things and dont judge anyone please believe that. But that said it is important to ''get along'' with your GP because it makes your professional relationship stronger and helps the GP to understand you as a person.
which in turn enables you to confide in him/her.
So yes tell him/her about your thought but say how with PNI they are just thought nothing else.
When you say about the knives ''i know which one is my favourite' what do you mean?
To harm yourself? Or is it another scary thought?
Being on your own will make your symptoms worse so can you arrange for someone to pop in or stay with you?
The thought won't make you do anything stupid at all but if you get the urge to do something please get help at once, 'phone me, GP,Health Visitor (is she is any good to you) or anyone who you trust.
In the main they are thoughts though and you are NOT going mad. They will go with the right medication.
As i say on here all the time ask your GP to refer you to a Specialist in PNI. Called Perinatal mental Health Specialists.
They are psychiatrists who specialise in PNI and who are understanding of the issues surrounding this.
Your baby is NOT going to be taken from you, and you are Not an unfit mother.
You are a mother who loves her baby and who is ill.
Please believe me when i say Postnatal Illness is just that -an Illness. It can have depression as part of its symptoms, or anxiety or a mixture of the two. It comres in many forms, it can make you hallucinate by hearing voices and chanting scary thoughts, seeing things, imagining horrible things happening to you or the baby. it is evil in the way it robs mothers of time with their baby.
some women like to be alone and hate having people around, (like me when i was ill) and some like you hate to be alone.
So do what makles you feel safe and happy. If you can teel them get you family to help out by staying with you.This will ease the symptoms.
Do you have alot of support emotionally from your boyfriend? He will need support too but from his family and friends or on here ask him to put something on the board.(If he can)
Geting support from family and your friends will really get you through this and with medication and a referral to a specialist you are putting in place everytihng possible to get you better.
Let me know how you get on with this, and if i can help with anything please let me know. My e-mail address is [e-mail]
. Take care and look after yourself,
Love
Deborah xx

[WileyKit]

thank you for all your advice, deborah.
i am seeing a doctor on thursday so i will try and say something. it isn't my normal one because he is on holiday i do trust him and i don't know what the new one will be like. i don't really get on with my hv that well, she's ok but i think the gp is enough.
i have been off sick from work for the past month or so because of the pnd. my baby's been in nursery 3 days a week, i have him for 2 days and my boyfriend looks after him at the weekend. the last couple of times i've had him i've found it really hard to cope, counting down the hours to the next nap, or when my boyfriend will get in from work. and doing the bare minimum, changing and feeding him but basically letting him entertain himself and just puuting him in his cot when he got too much. the weird thing is that i kind of resent my boyfriend for doing all the baby stuff, but i won't do it. all my emotions contradict each other.
i'm not going to stop my medication without the doctor telling me too, i trust he is trying to help me.
yes i know which knife i would use to slice my tummy open. i have held it to my tummy and prodded but put it back and carried on making tea or whatever i was doing. i have the desire to hurt myself with it but i don't want to die. maybe put in hospital and looked after but not killed.
my boyfriend is wonderful, i've never met a nicer man. he tries to understand, says reassuring things and all that. i know he is trying.
x

[deborah]

Wileykit please e-mail me so we can get you sorted out. If you don't want to thats fine.

Get your GP on thursday to have you admitted to a Psychiatric Mother & Baby Unit or refer you out of area with the baby.
Your feelings are under the surface but you wont notice the love you have for your baby until you are better.

You will get well and your baby will not be affected in any way please believe that.As long as she has a loving parent around to do things for her that is all that matters. Its you i'm concerned about.
its you who needs proper medication and the 24 hours care a unit such as mum and baby can provide.
You must insist on your GP referring you. Show him this if you can get it printed off.

Please e-mail me or phone me if things get bad please. 01335 347599, if the answer machine goes on just say who you are and i can call you right back. I am here 2pm to 4pm personally to answer as i find mums who know i'm definetly here at that time will ring me as they know i'll pick up. I do answer if i can even if its a brief chat to make another time to talk or if its urgent i will help you there and then if i can.
Please consider it Wileykit you are going through hell and its a long way off till Thursday call me.
lots of love deborah xx

[WileyKit]

do you think i need that much help? that is scary. but i am scared of my thoughts too. there is something comforting about them. only afterwards do i find them bad or strange. i don't feel i'll do anyhting sttupid. i don't want anyone here with me and please, i don't think i will ring you. i have a thing about phones at the moment.
i have an APNI counsellor by email. i told her all this for the 1st time, she said that the thoughts are just an escape mechanism, so i am confused about the advice i have. i need something to help me but i don't know what. my partner will be home tomorrow, thakfully, and my baby will be at nursery on thursday. it feels like such a long time, i dont' know why i can't cope with all this, i feel so pathetic. i have shut the world out, not answering the phone, or emails from friends. i can't string a happy sentence together for them. i am scared about telling the gp this stuff. i always go in with a smile on my face.

[deborah]

Hi Wileykit
yes i do think no i really feel you need that much help.

Don't you? If you don't think you don't why is that?

All we can do on here is suggest and possibly help. Ultimately, it is you who decides to seek the help you need.
I don't want to alienate you, i really am concerned about how you feel. Why is the thought of slitting open your abdomen comforting?
Is it the fact that you would be ''made'' to go into hospital and you would be helped?
I totally understand about the conflicting advice. It is a very complicated subject PNI, and the advice you get is very much down to the understanding of PNI and i think more importantly if the advisor has had it themselves and is not just quoting things they have read i think that advice is much more useful. But that is my view.

I am concerned at the fact you are ''shutting '' out everyone with not answering the 'phone etc. I can understand it believe me i've been there!
But i really do think that having someone visit your GP can your boyfirend go with you? would be helpful.

What is the worst that can happen? What are you scared your GP will do?

If you do anything at all, please consider what i'm saying to you. I have been in your place i have really and i want you to know there is help for you, but you need to get someone to go with you and explain the smiley face is a mask covering alot of symptoms of severe PNI.

I always know when a mum is ill. She's the one who is well dressed , make-up and ''happy'' (or any one of those descriptions)
PNI mums stand out a mile when you've had it yourself.
I hope you get the courage to go to your GP. Until then keep us informed about your progress and let us support you in any way we can.
Lots of love and kind thoughts,
Deborah xxxx

[Veritee]

Hi Wileykit

I feel for you but I am not worried. At least of course I am worried you are going through such a hard time, but I am not worried you are going to harm yourself your child or anyone else.
I may be wrong but this is the risk I am willing to take, but I do not think you will do anything and you are experiencing one of the worse symptoms of PNI, obsessive thoughts -but they are just thoughts however unpleasant.

I really should have posted to you before, but as you will see from my post under moderators announcements, I am having a bit of a break from the site during the Easter Holidays.

I should have posted to you because one of the main reasons I started this site was because of the 'scary thoughts' I had with PNI and the fact I felt I could tell no one.

My thoughts were very extreme at least as extreme as yours or so it seemed to me at the time but since I have run this site in one form or another I have heard worse than mine.

Also if you read through many past posts on this forum you will find that this symptom of ‘scary thoughts’ or as some call them 'dark thoughts' are one of the most distressing and in fact common symptoms of PNI and actually the one that women most think they can not talk about.

I have many posts on this forum saying about my thoughts. If you do a search for thoughts and ask to return posts up to 800 days or manually go back to the beginning and work through you will find I am others have said about their thoughts like this.

Unlike Deborah because I have experienced these thoughts, while I do think like all women with PNI you need the right kind of help, I am not anymore worried about you than I am for every woman on this site who has PNI.

I know that many women with PNI have really extreme obsessive thoughts with PNI but not many are brave enough to tell anyone exactly what they are and while you have not told very much on this forum you have said

'yes i know which knife i would use to slice my tummy open. i have held it to my tummy and prodded but put it back '

so I can see which way your thoughts go.

I had many for instance

I had weird thoughts about slitting my throat, or slashing off my stomach fat cutting off my nipples and would say mad things ( and actually to Caja when Barry was away at sea an there was no one else in the house) like I am going to cut my head off right now!
So horrible, and really wrong to say to a baby - but a symptom of PNI.

As well as hurting myself my thoughts also included amongst others thoughts of mutilating my child. I t was these that personally caused me the most guilt and anguish.
I actually went through 'exactly' what I would do in my head, one was to take a syringe needle that I had to give the horse injections and put it up the back of her neck into her brain. I even held the needle to her. I also had thoughts of drowning her in a local bog and used to walk there with her, and of knifing her.

My thoughts were worse when Barry was away and as he was away at sea much of the time it was a nightmare.

I actually threw all the knives in the house down a mine shaft at one point so we had to cut up our food with forks for nearly 2 years!!!

My daughter is now nearly 15.

I am being so graphic so you understand that I really have been there. And if I had told most people at the time they certainly would have panicked. But like you on one level I was not that worried you said:

‘do you think i need that much help? that is scary. but i am scared of my thoughts too. there is something comforting about them. only afterwards do i find them bad or strange. i don't feel i'll do anyhting stupid.

I felt exactly the same!! And I was right. I did not do anything stupid.
I absolutely respect your right not to have anyone with you if you do not want to and not to ring anyone.
I think your APNI counsellor is right - in fact I know she is right, your thoughts are an escape mechanism.

This is a very simple explanation and in the years I have talked to women about this I have developed some theories about what they could be caused by and it is a bit late now and this post will be long – but remind me and I will tell you what I have learnt another day.

I hate contradicting Deborah like this but I would imagine that like me your APNI counsellor has counselled women with PNI for many years. I have done it since 1993 for the APNI and the site since 1994 and we have both heard about the thoughts so many times.

But it is hard to hear it at first and not get very worried that the women is going to actually do some of these graphic thoughts.

You also will worry that they will 'get the better of you' and 'take over' and you will do what you think without being in control.
But I am certain that you will not. I may be wrong women do self harm with PNI or harm their babies in strange ways but a very small proportion about 1% I am willing to take the risk that you are not in that 1% - I know you are not.

I am also pretty certain they do not actually suffer from these thoughts – they just actually do it.

This does not mean you could not do with someone to talk to about this. You have made a god start with you telephone counsellor, but it would help - or it helped me to do it face to face.

I desperately needed to tell someone about these thoughts, someone who would listen and not be shocked and help me to understand what they were and reassure me that they were just thoughts and I would not suddenly lose control and do these things.

I eventually found a private counsellor who would listen without panicking.
She was able to listen because she had had similar when her children were small although not as wild. She was by then one of the top trainers in counselling and psychotherapy in Cornwall running diplomas in this but when her children were small she would have thoughts when driving them of deliberately running her car off the road and killing them all.

( I so hope that if she ever reads this she understands I am telling you this for a reason - to help another woman who is suffering)

The last thing I will add is that many, but not all women who have these thoughts with PNI have issues of abuse in the past – that they have suffered abuse.
In brief – very brief – this seems to be caused by issues around not being kept safe themselves as a child or young woman and therefore subconsciously or consciously being scared they will not be able to keep their own babies safe.

This was true for me – I was sexually and in other ways abused and my fact to fact counsellor was needed to work out how this abuse had affected me and how it fuelled these thoughts.

I do not say this is the same for you – but I am asking you if it might be – If it is not then disregard what I have said as we are all different and it is not the only reason women with PNI get these thoughts.

All the best for now

Veritee

[Veritee]

Of course I must add that Deborah is absolutely right in

That if you really feel you will harm yourself or your baby, either get someone in or put your baby in the car and go out and get help.

BuT I know from your posts that if you really thought your thoughts would turn to reallity - and I do not think they would - you would do exactly that.

I had these awlful thoughts but I did know that I would also die to protect my child and had I ever thought I would put her in danger I would have camped in the hospital until they admitted me.

I did once call someone to stay with me. But actually because they had no understanding of what I was going through I just wanted her to go because it became irritating having her around not helpful, so it has to be helpful.

I also agree with Debs that PNI robs you of your time with your child so if a specialist psychriatrst or psychotherapist could be found for you and could help or if there is a mother and baby unit and you thought a stay in would help, then do it or get more visits form a CPN regularly or a proivate counsellor as I did.

I did not want to counter Debs good advice but also I wanted to put your thoughts in perspective.

All APNI counsellors have had PNI and I would imagine that if yours did not panic over the 'scary thoughts' she has been their too with these thoughts or has heard thoughts like yours as I have from women before who have gone on to make a full recovery. Ask her

She has also talked with you on the phone so is more able to guage how you are than us who have only read your typing.
I know there are also women on this site who have or have had these thoughts. Maybe not the same and they have not all described them graphically as you have - but I know they have had them and I am surprised you have not had more reasurance about them from others.

Well I have done the night shift now - I am currently only answeing on here when my daughter is out or in bed - so I will go now as it is past 3am .
Have you tried the chat room -not to tell them all about the thoughts necessarily but to give you some company in the evenings while your partner is away, some find this is really helpful
All the best
Veritee

[WileyKit]

Veritee, thank you for your posts! It is so reassuring, i think i am going mad. I spoke to the gp today about my thoughts, i didn't go into as much detail as here but i think she got the idea and told me to ring someone, the hospital, or anyone if i feel i'm actually going to do anything. I felt she really did understand and i am going back in a week to check on how i'm getting on.
i feel blessed that i don't have the desire to do anything to my baby.
You were v honest in your post, i must admit that it was shocking to read, but it's helpful to me to know that both you and your daughter survived.
Yes, my APNI counsellor experienced the same sorts of things, she told me yesterday. she didn't tell me the ins and outs, and why should she? but that was also comforting to know that she gets what i'm talking about.
And even my boyfriend old me about weird things he thinks, but was full of reassurance, that they are only thoughts and everybody thinks weird things.
You mentioned abuse in your post, i suppose i was a victim of different sorts of abuse as a child, but as you can see, it is hard for me to admit these things. i would rather just forget about it. If that is possible. I keep getting flashbacks, it is so hard to push these thoughts out of my head, too.
Well, i'll go now, feeling much more relieved after reading your replies, thank you,
Wiley x

[Veritee]

Dear WileyKit

Congratulations on taking the first step and talking to you GP - and you really do not have to go into great detail as yet, perhaps it will be years - if ever - before you feel you can be open at all about what really went through your mind when you had PNI.

At the moment you just need to make a start in getting well. It does sound like your GP has a good grasp of what is going on for you even though you only skimmed the surface. Keep talking to her until you get the medical help or counseling help you need.

On this note of disclosing what your thoughts are, I do hope I did not go too far in my post to you. I just so much want women to know they are not alone in having horrible obsessive thoughts that I go over the top in saying what they were for me.

I feel reasonably safe in telling people as I am now recovered, Caja is nearly 15 and at 51 have reached the menopause so am never likely to be in the position of having a baby again!

(Although I have fostered older children privately and one quite recently and I am now going through the assessment to foster for the local authority, and even in my position I do not feel totally safe as I fear the social services fostering team would judge me to be unsafe with children if they were ever to read what I say on this forum - so I do understand why women find this part of the illness hard to talk about)

In fact I quite understand why you did not tell you GP everything, for the reasons above it has only been since I was well I could tell anyone fact to face and then only people I trust.

However when I was ill I did not need to tell anyone all the details - after I had told someone online and broke the ice.
I told an e mail pall in Canada and that was enough to start with. I could then go and tell a counselor, gp etc a censored version and get help.

You are right that you are fortunate that your thoughts do not extend to your child. This was the worse!!! thing for me. I felt I was some kind of monster. It is one thing to want to hurt yourself and another to want to hurt your child!

But many have these thoughts and for many different reasons and no one is a monster.

I have always loved Caja so much and I missed out one thing in my post to you which may explain why I had these thoughts.

In my madness I thought that killing her would protect her!!


I always thought of methods that would be instant hence the needle in her brain thing as I had read this was instantaneous.
I was very ill and I thought the world was heading for an environmental disaster which would lead to the end of the earth as we know it and a lot of terrible suffering for mankind.
I was scared that because I am an older mum that this disaster may happen after I was too old or dead and could not comfort her through it and I also felt I had no right in bringing a baby into this world knowing about global warming, the threat of mass destruction, nuclear extermination etc as to me at the time these things were definitely going to happen not just a possibility!!

You have to remember I was very ill. In this illness my thoughts were that I should have the courage to kill her painlessly so she would not have to experience the suffering I was sure all mankind would in the next century while she was growing up and when she was an adult. But despite my thoughts, I knew I could never actually harm my child!!

I hope you understand more why I had those extreme thoughts.

So for me it was a convoluted way of keeping her safe. I know also at the time I was scared stiff I would get pregnant again and was be convinced I was pregnant all the time even when I could not be as my husband was away at sea.

I so desperatly wanted another child but knew I could not be pregnant as I would want an abortion if I was. Not because I did not want a child but because of this conviction that the world would end horribly and I had no right to have a child, knowing what they would face.

Of course I am no longer ill and no longer think like this, but the tragedy for me in PNI is that by the time I was well enough to have, that so wanted second child, my childbearing days were over as I had an early menopause.
This is the thing that causes me the most pain and regret from having PNI.

I still worry about what people think of me which is why I had to add this explanation of why I had those thoughts – I needed to write it more for me than anyone else as I am still sacred of being thought a monster and that you and anyone else who read this thread would judge me. I always wanted to protect my child but due to PNI my thinking was very wrong – but I still could never hurt her.

Other women, who have had extreme thoughts of hurting their child or themselves even, may not have felt the world was ending but often when you get to the bottom of it – the reasoning, like mine is actually ironically to protect their baby from hurt.

Self harm can also be about this amongst other things.

I will finish this now, I do have so much to say on this subject from what I have learnt from listening to women’s stories of their thoughts of harm to themselves and others when suffering PNI and how it is so often about protecting their baby and children and usually not related to anger towards their children or anyone else.

I hope you are having a good day today

Veritee

[WileyKit]

Hi Veritee, thank you for your post. When i said your former post was shocking to read i did mean that the things you wrote were shocking, but more than that, that you were so frank about it. i have not ever come across anyone being so honest about this so it is v reassuring to me, as I was going around thinking i was awful for thinking weird things, when in fact, it is not all that uncommon.
Also, I am also convinced half the time that there is another baby inside me, i can "feel" it kicking. I am on the pill and mine and my partner's sex life is not at it's peak at the moment (as i'm sure many of you will uinderstand). So logically i know there is nothing there, but PND isn't logical at all, is it? That is another thing that has worried me, but less so since admitting my thoughts on this forum; why are my thoughts all based on cutting my tummy open when i believe there is a feotus in there? It has made me wonder if i would kill my unborn child and some strong feelings about abortion have come out that i never knew i had. My baby wasn't planned, so of course abortion was an option, but i chose not to abort. It's strange, i chose not to abort instead of choosing to have a baby. So in a way (unconcsiously) i think i feel a bit put out to have something i never asked for that has changed my life in every way.
I'll close here, I am rambling on, but i want to thank the people who replied to my posts here as you have helped me so much. And Deborah, it WAS nice to know someone was as worried about me as i was so thankyou!
Wiley
x