|
Post by yoyo on Apr 19, 2007 20:42:58 GMT
HI cat I too am in the same boat as you - I have never had any depressive episodes or family history of it etc etc - I simply had a traumatic birth experience, huge blood loss and PNI got me
|
|
|
Post by helenr on Apr 19, 2007 21:24:06 GMT
You know, the more I read this thread, the more I want to go to the so-called experts and BLEEEEP! Its amazing to me, that when I first read it, I atuomatically thought, oh yes bereavement when I was younger, and blamed myself. But the more I have thought about it, yes it was a terrible time for me, but my life other than that has been so good. As hubby pointed out to me, we thought we were never going to have children of our own, and the joy of finding out we were pregnant was immense. But I still got PNI, TWICE! Sorry, think I've gone off on a bit of a ramble there
|
|
joannem
Senior Member
joannem mum of one little boy born Jan 2006
Posts: 314
|
Post by joannem on Apr 19, 2007 22:18:02 GMT
Yes Helen Go Girl!! I would like to tell these so called experts where to shove their theories!!! Lets tell them what its like Ladies and get them to understand this Illness and lets make it better for others! Its time PNI lost all its stigma that is still unfortunately attached to it, because while ever they have there crazy theories they will never understand it or appreciate just how it really affects us and our families! I'll shut up now cos if I get started I wont stop!! Joannem xx
|
|
|
Post by Veritee on Apr 19, 2007 23:08:44 GMT
I am with you all the way on this Joannem and all No one knows until they suffer it And I am having to hold myself back on this too
|
|
|
Post by sadmum39 on Apr 21, 2007 21:35:33 GMT
Hello - such an interesting debate! I did suffer depression before in my younger years and I have learnt to live (and love) that aspect of me. I understand myself and have all the tricks and tips to helping me maintain my mental health. I had a difficult time growing up and suffered loss and sadness. However, THIS IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING LIKE PNI. The PNI is consuming, debilitating, incomprehensible. In all my experience of depression - PNI is the nastiest, most gripping and destroying illness I have ever had the displeasure of trying to deal with. I had easy births (no trauma there) but my first OH left me pregnant, penniless and in huge debt, my 2nd OH is lovely but with him I have had 2 babies, plus 2 miscarriages within 3 years, and my middle one has learning difficulties and I am often anaemic. Plus I had difficulty feeding all my babies. My PNI is more to do with being knackered, ill, grief and sadness than anything related to my previous depression, in my view
love SMx
|
|
|
Post by caterina on Apr 22, 2007 10:18:05 GMT
You know ladies this whole thing has p***ed me off..how dare some 'expert' sit in their cozy little office and make assumptions about women with PNI? Instead why not ask us? I would happily talk to someone with questions and blow their theory of 'oh well you must have a bad background' right out of the water. It's about time that the stigma of PNI was lifted, there are so many women who won't go for help or are dismissed by idiot GPs who don't believe PNI is a real thing. Well come spend a week in my life then tell me PNI isn't real.
|
|
|
Post by homemaker on May 3, 2007 15:15:05 GMT
This is my first post, so don't all jump on me.lol! I think generally it isn't even particularly helpful to know if the first statement is or isn't scientifically true, but since we are exploring....
There are so many factors which can influence our personal experience of PNI, whether they started from *our own* pre-conception, ( druggy mother/ alcoholic/ conceived in violence etc..) or that of our children, ultimately becomes irrelevant.
It is clear that women with curent/ previous issues *do* have an increased 'risk' of PNI - I really don't see that this link can be denied. It doesn't guarantee PNI, but is an indicator, so this will be helpful in terms of offering women ante/ post natal support in the form of counselling for instance, but also to address any long term depression/ suicidal tendencies, ( whether using modern medicine or traditional types).
There is also information to suggest that, ( and I really must try to source it again!), a woman's attitude to life and general coping mechanisms can greatly influence her experience of PNI. I'm not saying it is mind over matter, but some women will experience some types of PNI issues in a lighter form than others.
I've seen more than a few women go through PNI swear that they were not depressed before, and yet that has not been the impression that they gave to those around them. Sometimes it seems that being post natal makes it more acceptable to be depressed than previously!?!?!lol. Not sure how, but PNI/ the depressive element of it is more socially acceptable than other types of depression - maybe specifically *because* we can blame it on our hormones/ chemicals, and don't feel that previous abuse/ trauma/ depression will be slapped on us as potential bad/ unfit mothers etc etc - cos hey! loads of women get PNI - it isn't so freakish anymore iykwim. Whereas general depression still has far more stigmas attached etc...
I also find that people's expectations of motherhood are insightful. Where people grow up seeing what it measn to have a baby - a HUGE amount of work, life transforming - NEVER TO BE 'BACK TO NORMAL' - BECAUSE NORMAL HAS *CHANGED* is a big issue these days where most of us are isolated and without regular free/ trusted support. Oh man, does childbirth rock our worlds, let alone having to go home and deal with the little creature that just came out of us!?! how *did* it happen.lol!?!? - talk about overwhelm and responsibility.
I did all the practical very automatically, and happily in fact, my midwife barely visited because she said I handled my son so confidently and certainly, and I loved being a Mummy - but that seeping OVERWHELM of responsibility still hasn't gone away years - and a number of children - later.lol.
Okay, then there *are* the hormones.lol. oh yes, certainly. I went somewhat nuts even during pregnancy and certainly felt a surge of possession by something even whilst carrying baby. This was less with subsequent children, and I did see it as my body having been more used to the rise in hormones.
After the fourth I really wanted to go and get my progestogen levels tested, because it was that which seemed 'out', but even this balance will be different in each one of us.
With one child I didn't get PNI. I have little to explain this. Some ideas, but mostly social factors and that was I was the most grounded in my life circumstances than I had ever been before. I had some counselling during the pregnancy and was a bit wobbly *during* the pregnancy, but very 'even' after the birth.
I have other ideas, but have to go now.
I think I'm against the grain of most people here. I don't see previous trauma factors as being anymore 'damning'/ accusatory to us as chemical imbalances etc in being the 'cause' of PNI.
***** I certainly don't take it personally whatever triggered it. *****
and I wouldn't say that everyone who gets PNI has had previous trauma, but equally don't discount it as a factor. Hope that makes sense.)
What exactly would others describe as the 'reason' for PNI to strike in so many women these days?
I also take issue with our diet/ whole societal way of living. But that's another controversial one,)
best wishes
Khadijah
|
|
owensmum75
Full member
My son was born Dec '05. Had PND from June 06. Am now recovered and want to help others. Hugs!!
Posts: 97
|
Post by owensmum75 on May 3, 2007 16:12:06 GMT
The so called experts come up with these theories as a way of not having to deal with PNI. If they can come up with something to blame it on other than bad birth/pregnancies then they don't have to acknowledge that it is a widespread and common problem.
|
|
|
Post by cheshire on May 3, 2007 16:47:32 GMT
Dear Homemaker, Welcome to the sitex I agree with much of what you say here - as you say ''There are so many factors which can influence our personal experience of PNI''... And as I have said previously on this thread, I too think that past issues/ trauma may be a risk factor & in terms of personal experience, can affect the recovery process..? Additionally, I'm sure the westernised society and how we deal with these things does not help much. And as for hormones , must be another factor..? Seems to me that that this is all very complex - and as you say, the least helpful thing is to blame oneself, whatever the causes. Anyway, hope to hear from you again - are you in recovery/ recovered? Hopefulxx
|
|
|
Post by homemaker on May 3, 2007 21:13:39 GMT
Dear Hopeful,
Am I in recovery or recovered? Hmn, well, I certainly don't consider myself in the throes of PNI - I would probably count as recovered, though I have to say that I do worry about having another child lest I struggle so much again! So, would I be considered in remission!?!?
khadijah x
|
|
|
Post by Veritee on May 3, 2007 22:41:56 GMT
Hi Homemaker Welcome to the forum, I hope it will be useful to you too as even if you are not ill with PNI it can still be helpful to share on here. - well I have found it so as I started it when I had recovered from PNI but still had a lot of sadness about having suffered PNI for so long and thus feeling that Caja and I had missed out on so much joy and sharing/learning together that I felt should be part of a mother and daughter relationship. But I have found that by talking to mothers on here the sadness has not gone but it has helped me come to terms with it and live well and productively. Of course your issues - if any - that remain due to having had PNI will not be the same as mine as while we share much, the experience is unique also for all. But it is my true hope that sharing on the forum be a two way thing for all, even if you are now recovered or 'in remission'Actually I think the description remission is a very good word for what I went through when by the time Caja was three I was over ' the throes of PNI ' as I no longer felt ill, but was still finding my mood swung up and down, that while I was mostly 'me' again I was not quite the person I had been before and if stressed I would relapse a bit if only for an hour or so And that because my ajusting to being a mum had sort of been delayed for me by my PNI I had a lot of learning to do about this and could feel rocky a lot although I would no longer consider myself to be ill exactly. This 'stage' lasted for me a further 2 years - and reading what you put I think a good description would be 'in remission' I too was very worried about the prospect of another child as I really could not face PNI again and felt it would really not be at all fair on Caja to risk it - yet I really did so want another child .But this dilemma was solved for me by nature - or destiny - or god - or whatever way a person looks at it by the fact that shortly after I reached an early menopause I was about 38 when Caja was born and so about 42 by then. So thank you Khadijah for suggesting another way of viewing that in-between time I experienced when I was not quite well as I felt I was fragile and circumstances - including another baby or another life changing event - could very well have put me back into PNI. I wonder now if we are always in remission as for many years I would have said I was totally over PNI - from when Caja was 5 till she was 13 - But I did have a life changing event as I had bad accident in 2003 which put me in and out of hospital and in a wheelchair for nearly a year and has left me with some disability. And many of the PNI 'issues' came back to haunt me again, plus the realisation that my childbearing years and even my past easy mobility and health was well and truely over and I now had to ajsut to middle age and look forward to old age - I was 50 when the accident happened 54 now - which is yet another stage of life. Although I have never been ill again in the way I was then with PNI , I have had to re look and re- process many things again around my feelings about being a mum and that there are no second chances for us to share caja's baby hood and early childhood as Caja is soon to be 18 and what is done is done, and my perceived inadequacy in this area and my sadness of what might have been. I am again on the hard slope up and out but I think perhaps I should regard myself as in remission - perhaps for life? Thank you Veritee XX
|
|
|
Post by Veritee on May 3, 2007 23:08:07 GMT
PS Only my opinion but based in part too on talking to many older women - older than me ...
I am not sure more women get PNI than used to I think it is rather that we are more out of the closet than we were.
My mother had PNI after I was born 54 years ago and her mother with her second, and many of my older female relatives. I have also talked to women in their 80s who were sectioned because of it and ended up institutionalized and in hospital for many years.
Now I am in my 50s I talk to many women who also had it who are my age or older or had friends or relatives that did and it is only now so many years later that they feel they can talk about it as it was - and still is but a bit less - so stigmatized.
Many on here over the years also had mums or relatives that had PNI, some hospitalized.
I think in the past unless you were hospitalized you suffered alone or it was contained within your own family - easier of course to contain it when there were more extended families as this gave a degree of support for some that we lack now as mothers with small children and no extended family can be very isolated................. and support like this forum helps to fill in a little of the gap..... but of course as it is 'public' support and not family support it also makes the world more aware of the suffering of individual women
So it is my opinion that women have always suffered PNI and perhaps/probably in the same numbers - we just did not know because they did not tell!
Love Veritee
|
|
|
Post by caterina on May 4, 2007 9:11:17 GMT
Hi homemaker
Not going to jump all over you but I am going to disagree with this statement
I've seen more than a few women go through PNI swear that they were not depressed before, and yet that has not been the impression that they gave to those around them italics put in for quoting another post only (Sally)[/b]
Obviously I am talking from my own experience but this is just not the case in my situation.. Furthermore, had I been depressed before this I would have sought help as I am in the medical profession and feel no stigma attached to mental illness. Being post natal did not make an already existing depression 'acceptable' it brought on an new depression for me.
On a lighter note, welcome to the site and I hope you find it helpful in your experience of PNI xx
|
|
|
Post by Veritee on May 4, 2007 15:21:02 GMT
This is a HUGE issues isn't it ? One that may run and run
I think we should ask Marce or representatives of Marce to look at this thread - I intend to do try to make sure they this!! What do you all think?Dear All I know no one will jump on anyone but this is a BIG debate which will evoke feeling and emotions- and one that I hope we can all honestly put our opinions So we need to be kind to one another and respect that we all may have strong feelings about this and that we all have every right to air them. __________________________________________ And we learn from each other - if you read back on my posts on this thread I am thinking about the issues as I post and my thinking changes as I respond to others - we need debate on this sort of subject but hopefully none of our opinions are set in stoneMy view right now is pretty much as yours Caterina as from supporting probably hundreds of women on this site since it started around 1998/99 and making sure I continue to talk to as may women as possible from all age groups about PNI .................. I feel PNI just can not be put down to individuals circumstances etc?So At this current time ( and this may change as I learn more) it is my opinion that PNI is a very separate illness and can not be put down to individuals experiences and circumstances i.e lifestyles/income/religion/family support and values/childhood/drug or alcohol use in family/financial status/ cultural group /previous history of mental illness/ i.e (adverse childhood, minority status, family violence, social isolation, language problems, housing or financial difficulties, cigarette, alcohol or drug use, developmental disability, bereavements or other losses, etc etc ) And to do so - i.e put it PNI down to theses factors - seems to me in my mind to devalue individuals experiences of PNI and also to indirectly 'blame' the individual suffer for having PNI in the first place!!!!Which is why I think maybe many of us get angry when this is suggested? as with PNI we too easily blame ourselves and do not need professionals or anyone else joining us on this? The only problem with my point of view from my own personal perspective is that I DID have some of theses factors Abet a long time before I had PNI and by the time I had PNI I had ( or thought I had ) pretty much dealt with them and I had also been in a loving and successful relationship with a happy lifestyle for some years. But the fact I did have some of theses factors does not always make me a good advocate when arguing what I feel is correct from talking to many women over at least 15 years - that PNI is not a product of a womans previous history but a separate illness that at least 1 in 7 endure REGARDLESS of their previous life/historySo we need women to speak out: And those that have not suffered any of the above mentioned circumstances but still had PNI to put their case, and of course those that did to express their evaluation about how much it is a factor for them. I fully intend to send what we write here to Marce or anyone else who wants to actually hear what we have to say Please keep posting your comments as everyones contribution - for or against - is valuable And hopefully will be heard Veritee
|
|
|
Post by bam02 on May 4, 2007 21:32:22 GMT
I think this is a debate issue and the person who originally put the question is a researcher - not a sufferer. Therefore every opinion is valid, but it is very emotive
I think my first major depression was after the birth of my first child 12 years ago - but it was worse after my second 4 years ago.
Now i am trying to get help for mental health reasons! But am no longer seen as Post natal and to be honest, they seem to listen more now I am out of that stage as it has gone so long.
So I have to agree with Caterina, as for stigma of general mental illness - I don't see it- if fact for a so called enduring life time mental illnes (i.e Bi-polar (my investigation at present) or others) more help is available than PNI. In my area of Manchester - new psychriatric wards are being built and lots of money going into mental health - but not into the primary care side i.e through G.P's - only through mental health professionals!
So you can get more attention for long term mental illness, unless you turn to alcohol or drugs - then you are stigmatised (but that another area)....
Sall
|
|