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Post by Veritee on Nov 16, 2005 9:16:23 GMT
I had this request for info on whether manual therapy has given benefit to PNI **********FirstName: Hector
Surname: Wells
date: 15/11/2005
town: Banbury
emailaddress: hector@andmoyra.fsnet.co.uk
info: Osteopath who has appeared to have success withPND I am looking for any papers that support manual therapy has given benefit to PND It would appear from my observations that PND is caused by the locking up of the cranial nerves most likely due to valsalva effort of birth. However the most striking obsevation is that all the clients are of the same type. They all present with hypermobile or very mobile connective tissue which allows the stucture to jam up wth high force. Interestingly I have a Grandma, mother and daughter who all suffer fron anxiety/depression, all are hyper mobile. Please could you advise on any literature/ sites you have etc. It would appear that response to treatment is immediate but obviously not complete. Thanking you for any help. PS you can check my details on the GOsC web site under osteopaths thank you hjw *************************************
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Post by Veritee on Nov 16, 2005 9:18:45 GMT
Hi Hector
Thank you for your contact. I personally have never had any information on this at all. In fact until you mentioned it no one has ever suggested to us at least that PNI could be in any way related to this in any way.
I have had manual manipulation for other things including a neck injury from horse riding . This manipulation took place when I had PNI and as far as I can recall as it was 14 years ago now - it had no effect on my PNI.
However we are always interested in any theories or explanations of why someone may or may not get PNI so I have put your request for information in the 'Medication & Alternatives' section of our forum.
The only observation I have from a completely 'laypersons' non medical professional point of view is to ask - how does this theory fit in with someone like me who had a caesarean, and the fact that their is a higher proportion of women who had a caesarean who also get PNI than mothers who don't ?
The research has been done that backs this up that says that there is statistical evidence that you are slightly more likely to have PNI if you have a caesarean as you are also if you have any difficulties at birth and medical intervention.
Although this means very little as having a caesarean or medial intervention can not be said to be a cause either as many woman get PNI who had normal births and also those who had 'easy' births I wondered if you had considered this.
I know that some women who have caesareans do get to the stage of pushing which I assume is where the 'valsalva effort' comes in ( I thought it was 'vascular or are you talking about something else?)
But my personal experience was while I was in incredible pain for nearly 36 hours this was 'passive' pain and I made no bodily effort and did not get to any pushing stage as the pain was non-productive and I was not dilated really at all.
Anyway as I said I am not a medical person , but I do think that while the factors you talk about may play a part for some, just as many factors seem to enter into our experience of PNI - I can not see this as a major cause as to why at least 1 in 10 or perhaps as many as 1 in 7 of every birth results in the mother getting PNI?
But thanks for your input - perhaps now it is on the forum other women will give you their feedback and perhaps someone who knows more about the medical side of giving birth than me will give you a response
all the best
Veritee
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Post by cheshire on Nov 16, 2005 11:01:35 GMT
Hi
This is interesting isn't it?
Does manual therapy mean physical therapy I wonder - like massage/ physiotherapy? As well as osteopathy ?
I thought this was interesting:
locking up of the cranial nerves most likely due to valsalva effort of birth
I've just read that "Valsalva Maneuver" means pushing down forcefully while holding your breath
I also after a quick search read that some forms of cranial nerve damage can cause vertigo and vision problems - but then other things can cause this too...and it doesn't account for women who experience these symptoms after a C section..
I'm not sure what it means in a medical sense at all really - but I had a problematic pushing stage which was lengthy and very painful - he was quite a size and his shoulder was 'stuck' . He had to be 'pulled out' by the midwife in the end ..as I was at home. ..I felt like I had run out of pushes although I know that this is not possible.
I'm sorry I don't know the jargon or if this is irrelevant , but what I do remember about the early stages of PNI is that an Indian Head Massage really helped. She said that she could tell I needed it as my head was covered with nodules (?) , but maybe everyone gets this...
This is just my experience, hope it doesn't sound too daft!!
I think PNI is caused by a mixture of things - and in my own personal opinion feel that chemical and hormonal changes must play a big part. But maybe valsalva effort of birth did play a small part with me ? - I did go into shock for quite some time afterwards..
Anyway, Just thoughts! Hopeful
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Post by cheshire on Nov 16, 2005 11:05:49 GMT
Sorry, Veritee, just seem your post, if you want to move this to the Alternative Therapy section, that is fine.
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Post by Veritee on Nov 16, 2005 17:43:20 GMT
Thats fine hopeful - leave it here:
By theh way Hector is an Osteopath
Below is an answer I got from him about what I said - he does not seem to have understood that he can write directly back to us on the forum so I have said to him I will copy his answer onto the forum
Can I send your reply above to him??
He seems to be offering a 'free trial' of his method- and I could not see it could do any harm and it might be worth a go - we ll it really would be worth taking up his offer if it works
So if anyone is interested - put a reply here and I'll pass it on to him
*********************************************** Dear Veritee
Your reply has been very helpful; in fact it is very informative.
The observation you make suggests there is another reason for the blocking. I am still left with the observation that all the subjects who have had the problem have had the same problem of over mobile joints.
If not the valsalva then the only real load that locks the cranial base is stress/tension/anxiety. This can be historic or in the last year but there must be a history of over load i.e. polyphasing with multi-tasking and frenetic life style. You get the stress pattern fixating during the pregnancy then it sets solid when the body temperature returns to normal. This creates a non adaptive physiology and the drift into PND.
I surmise that if I am correct in my observations virtually all women who suffer post natal depression would respond to the release.
The principle is that the cranial base gets jammed up and all the feed back mechanisms get over loaded, the person get so much neurological feed back from the body that they can’t load anything up from the out side. So with drawl is the only place to go. It is almost like a shut down to prevent any further over load.
In reverse the same happens with ADHD where the child is over loaded and has to over stimulate to stop the back-ground neurological noise from upsetting them, these too responds very well to a release, again they are invariably hyper-mobile.
Anyway if you would like to develop the conversation
If this forum is the correct one (I don’t know if it is) I would offer my services FOC to five volunteers and then assess if there truly is a response, however the subject would have to have a stable and unchanged case history for at least a year. The technique is a painless release that changes the body tone immediately you would expect three treatments over two to three weeks.
Thanks for the reply
Yours Hector Wells
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Post by cheshire on Nov 16, 2005 17:49:34 GMT
Veritee, that's fine to send my reply and I think what he says about stress and withdrawl is also interesting .. ..what a complex problem we all have which is just SO not fully understood!
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Post by cheshire on Nov 16, 2005 19:11:45 GMT
Dear Hector/ Veritee,
I would like to try this as you have got me curious. I still have a problem travelling long distances though and I'm sure you would understand this. Where would this take place?
Also, I am not sure what this means?
''have a stable and unchanged case history for at least a year''
Many thanks,
Hopeful
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Post by hector wells on Nov 16, 2005 21:58:16 GMT
Dear Hopful I live in Banbury. If you feel that you would like see if release works for you then that is great. You need to wear baggy T shirt, leggings then you do not need to disrobe(NO skirts) but clothes with zips, buttons etc get in the way it would be best to have a chaperone on a visit so you are the most relaxed. My Name and address are on the register's web site GOsC If you are a volunteer then no charge but this does not affect you statory rights Yours sincrely Hector
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Post by cheshire on Nov 16, 2005 22:15:44 GMT
Dear Hector,
That is so kind, but I could not possibly travel that far..I am still too overwhelemd by any environment outside of my immediate locality..and I have not driven outside of my home town since baby was born.
I am so interested in your work though, so please keep the conversation going.
Are you a GP, a scientist or maybe a PhD student doing research? I don't know - you can find out about us easily here, but your work is so interesting and we would love to hear more about you and your practice.
Hopeful
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Post by hector wells on Nov 20, 2005 21:23:09 GMT
Dear Hopeful I am an osteopath and my details are on the GOsC web site if you need to check me out. I am sorry you are so hammered by PNI. The work being done is a pilot study. I am at present working with a consultant psychiatrist and we are looking at the response rate to osteopathy and medication verses medication alone onPNI. The drugs work on the limbic system and are usually seritonin or noradrenaline influencers.
My observation is that the type of person most susceptable to treatment with PNI or other mood affecting issues are often hypermoblie i.e. they easily lock up. Therefore if you restore the old mobility of the cranial base you release the out-flow but also restore the sphinoid mobility and therfore better health. The sphenoid holds the pituitary and is related to the hypothalamus and limbic system. Anyway that is too detailed, what I do is restore movement to stiff bits, this stiff bit I am on about is the cranial base. I did feel that the internet might generate some experiences that support the work but at present it has not. Yours H W
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Post by cheshire on Nov 21, 2005 17:51:46 GMT
Dear Hector
I am still fascinated by this..I mean, if the 'pushing stage' is very difficult during labour, I can imagine it might adversley affect your body afterwards. ..
I thought this was interesting in particular:
''The principle is that the cranial base gets jammed up and all the feed back mechanisms get over loaded, the person get so much neurological feed back from the body that they can’t load anything up from the out side. So with drawl is the only place to go. It is almost like a shut down to prevent any further over load.''
Does this mean that our environment becomes too much to cope with, so we are forced to withdraw? It does feel like this with PNI sometimes..?
Have any case studies been published?
Hopeful
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Post by hector wells on Nov 21, 2005 22:25:15 GMT
Dear Hopeful I look it in the way that these internal circuits are creating so much feed back they can't process any new challenge. It struck me the other day that PSD is caused when the pubis gets all loose is due to hormone changes. These hormones are throughout the body and can act on other fibrous joints Cranial sutures are joints that are held together in the skull by fibrous tissue also. If the pubis can go weak so too can the cranial sutures and these may then get more easily locked when the body returns to normal. To make an illustration is you squeeze your wrist the hand below feels odd and full; so can't feel or perform things so well. If all the cranial out flow is restricted then also this will act like a squeeze but on an infinitely higher level of organisation and so causing a peculiar adaption process to cope with the over load. Any way Hopeful this area of PDI at present is totally seen to be one that belongs to medicine Hence the study i am following Yours HJW
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Post by cheshire on Nov 21, 2005 23:00:28 GMT
Dear Hector,
I am a psychologist in background but not a medic - do you mind explaining 'internal circuits' - do you mean chemical brain processes or muscular/ nervous activity? I do identify exactly with what you say about problems experiencing any new challenge (in the environment?) . I also teach about ADHD so find this theory quite fascinating.
Also, you mention PSD (is this post traumatic stress disorder?)..sorry, I digress.. also what is 'pubis'? All I do know is that muscles do relax when pregnant and up to a few weeks after birth?
I am still interested in this statement...what is 'locked' and what is 'normal' (see below)
''These hormones are throughout the body and can act on other fibrous joints Cranial sutures are joints that are held together in the skull by fibrous tissue also. If the pubis can go weak so too can the cranial sutures and these may then get more easily locked when the body returns to normal.''
Thanks for contributing
Sincerely Hopeful
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