p-n-d

[john]

don,t really know where to start .. my wife gave birth to twins 13 weeks ago . they where 12 weeks prem a boy and a girl . we had 11 weeks of daily trips to the maternity hospital twice a day . now there was no sign of any illness with my wife till a week after we brought the kids home. now after 1 week of getting the kids home my wife starts to be sick and can,t cope and starts to faint and so on . now the doctors come to my house and health visitors and all say she has pnd and give her all kinds of drugs which didn,t work . she is now in a mother and baby unit getting help which looked as if it was helping untill the day passes started .now she has gone back to square one and i don,t know how to help her or cope myself . i do help her with the kids like changing the nappies and feeding during the day and night . i just feel like running away from it . i know this is not the answer .. but my head is pretty much > messed up< im 42 and i love my wife very much ..

[William]

John,

I'm really not sure exactly what I can say to make you feel any better, I'm lucky that my wife is only being treated as an outpatient. It sounds like you need some practical help and maybe even a day or so out for yourself. If you need someone to talk to, on the phone, or if you're nearby face to face, please feel free to email me. I also have a friend who runs a charity & helpline, who has been in a mother and baby unit herself, and may be more help, I can give you her details if you'd prefer.

Please don't give up, it may take time and it may be difficult, but your wife will get better.

Also be aware that you can suffer PTSD / PNI yourself and you need to look after yourself to help to look after others.

Be consoled that there are many other men out there who have wives who are ill or in similar circumstances, and you are not alone, just look to see how many people read this board. I'm sure many others don't have the courage to put on a post.

My prayers are with you and your family,
William

[john]

im happy someone replied.. my wife is in an nhs run unit the first of its kind in scotland . she says its not p.n.d - it is panic attacks with anxiety due to coping with the kids .. i find i cope with the kids and if my wife is there and is having an attack i start to panic and ask or tell her to leave the room .. the phyciatric nurse says to make her stay and deal with the kids but i cannot bring myself to do this ...im not really helping am i ? ..
she is home for a night pass but ive sent her to bed so i can deal with the kids ..and let her get a good nights rest . but i dread the morning as i know she will be ill again ....

[Veritee]

Hi John

( Just for men does not exclude us women responding BTW)

My heart goes out to you. What an awful situation for you both and so hard also with prem twins too.

You did not say about your job situation – I guess you are not working at present but are you under pressure to go back to work from employers etc or have you left work until this situation gets better?

Do you have any help with childcare or do you do it all alone?
Do you have anyone who takes over to give you a break?

What you are taking on is a huge task for anyone - and I hope this does not sound sexist? - it is even more difficult for a man to be the main carer of young babies and young children.

Not because they can not do it and do it well but because society does not provide the support networks for men caring for young children and you are not as well prepared as most women grow up knowing this is a role they may have to take on at some point in their lives, but this is not so certain for men.

I speak from family experience as my brother is a single parent of three children (I know you are not a single parent but you are bearing the responsibility alone for the care of your children at present).

I know he will not mind me telling you this. His wife left when her last baby (they had 4 children altogether) was only a couple of months old. She took with her the middle girl but left the baby girl and her two older brothers the oldest just 5.

He found that networks open to mothers of young children were not welcoming to him ie mother and baby and mother and toddler groups later playgroups or even chats with other mothers in the park when pushing the pram or meetings outside school etc

He experienced a form of depression himself. Not caused so much by the split but the responsibility of caring for such a young baby and not having any assistance or breaks - it is about this I wanted to comment to you about.

I understand why this is happening and that it is very difficult for you; but as you say your inability to let your wife look after your children is not actually very helpful and probably will hinder her recovery.

Being sent away to let you deal with the children, she will feel even more useless and inadequate than she already does.

However I also understand that you can not help this reaction and ironically I would suggest you are behaving exactly as many mothers with PNI behave in the early months of their child’s /children’s lives.

This seems to happen to women who are ill but unlike your wife do not have any alternative but to care for their children despite the panic and the PNI.

It happened to me because my husband is a seaman and despite my PNI had to go away 2 weeks after Caja’s birth.

When my husband was home I would not let him do anything for my child. Despite my illness I did everything, fed her, changed her, nursed her absolutely everything.
He still sometimes talks about how shut out and inadequate he felt at this time yet I was the one who was ill!!!!

The way it worked for me was: the task I was taking on was so terrifying, so hard but I had no alternative. So the only way I could take on this responsibility was to take it all on and not share any of it at all.

I was scared that if I delegated or shared anything , even with my husband, when I next had to take on the care I would collapse and not be able to.
As at the time my husband had absolutely no choice but to go back to sea this would have meant my child having to go into foster care – a prospect which was unthinkable.

I would like to suggest that even though it is your wife that is ill and not yourself, something like this is happening to you?

You say you panic if your wife panics and this does sound like you are not totally well yourself and you can not let her look after the twins because you are worried that your panic will get the better of you and you will not be able to do it either.

( I will say that this will not happen – if you have managed so far you will still look after then even in full panic as in fact I and many other parents do)

While I understand how it is for you I will suggest that this could have consequences if you do not tackle your feelings. By tackling your feelings I certainly do not mean suppress them or bottling them up.

What I mean is you need to get help, perhaps counselling and support for yourself too.

It is your wife who is ill now but you are obviously very traumatised or you would be able to let your wife do a little of the care with your supervision and help her through her panics.

The consequences are that if you do not let go a little you too will become ill and your wife will be ill longer because she has nothing to build upon in terms of caring for her children and being a mother.
If she put them to bed once by herself, panicked throughout but still got through it, as indeed you have to, the next time having succeeded she may panic less and feel she had achieved something.

Of course this will be a long process (I panicked every time I put my child to bed for two years but I still did it, this is not unusual with PNI) and you will have to be on hand to support her but in the long run it is what you have to do for yourself as well as her.
You sound a resourceful person and you have to use this to get assistance for yourself.
If your wife is in hospital they know your family situation so you can begin there.

One way foreword to help you feel happier to let someone else care for your children may be not at first to get your wife to do it but for you to get someone else to look after them occasionally, and do some of the major tasks, perhaps feed, change nurse and put to bed.

Many with twins do have this sort of help. If you have the money this can be a paid occasional nanny, Au Pair or if not a good friend or relative. In your position you could also ask the hospital and social services if there is any way an occasional respite carer can be found. I am sure if you explained the situation and that you need help to let others care for your children and so you can learn to let your wife do it. The social services do have people called family aids (in Cornwall they are called this they may have a different name elsewhere) who should be available in your situation. They can take on specific tasks which I will get to later.


It would be good for you to let someone else do this while you go out or visit your wife or do something just for you for a few hours or even a day.

It may be you already have this kind of help or just do not want it – but if so perhaps you could try the following as well.

Even if you will not allow someone else to take over from you to give you a break - this person could do this care some times when both you and your wife are there. She or he could get your wife to act as their assistant for feeding or putting the twins to bed or whatever at first. This way you will not need to panic at your wife’s panic and in fact as there is someone else there you could go to another room, watch TV, play a computer game whatever relaxes you.

Your wife could then gradually take on more of the tasks while that person is there as her confidence builds. I know you will react to this suggestion with resistance but it has to be worth the risk.

When I was ill for a time social services sent a family aid every single meal time ie whenever I needed to feed Caja solids, for 4 weeks. This does show that this kind of longer term assistance is available. I have also known family aids only to come in at bedtime or mornings to help get the mother and the children up, fed etc.

I know that can feel shaming and embarrassing and make you feel that their presence is undermining your competence. But it does not have to be approached this way.

You and any helpers, the hospital the HV etc are doing a job – you are working together to get your wife well or at least able to come home and participate a little in family life and the care of her children.
You have to see it this way and take and request every assistance you can.

I would also suggest that as well as this site that you see if you can get local support for yourself, perhaps counselling.

Please let me know what your response is to my comments and if anything I have suggested is helpful to you.

Please keep us up to date with what is happening , how you are getting on.

All the best

Veritee

[john]

veritee ;D thanks for the reply.your right i don,t work and have plenty time on my hands . i was going to be a house husband as my wife works for the nhs (phyciatric nurse) with old folk so its not the same field ..they let her home for the night and it was a complete dissaster she took an attack and i had to give her a diazepam to calm her down..she wanted to kill her self as she says she can see what she is doing to me and the kids . she has it in her head that the unit will not work . everything she seems to think is negative thoughts like im going to leave her (not on her lifetime) .. the unit is basicly putting into practice what you say but the have asked me to step back just a little which is fine but as long as they don,t stop me altogether . i am going to get a counseller to speak to me as they are there for us both.. i know i cant go on sitting in tears everytime i see her panic ..she has my full support and her mum and dad + friends .. veritee i will register for this forum as i think i will be using it for a long time to come . i thank you for your kind support ..john

[john]

ps i hope you can make sense of the above .. forgive me my head is not screwed on ... john

[Veritee]

Hi John

This is a long post again I’m afraid – I always aim to keep it short but find I just can not say what I feel I need to say in a short note.

This does not remain the same. As I learn more about your situation I can keep the post more specific, but in the beginning they are long – so have a cup of coffee, print it out, and read it in bits.

I am not surprised that your head is not screwed on at the moment – it must be very difficult for you.

But I think no one will exclude you from the care of your children. You may in fact always be their main carer but hopefully your wife will find a role within this as men who work long hours have to when their wife is the main carer.

Another time I will tell you about friends of ours who had similar experiences to yours and for them after the acute phase it was solved by his wife being the main wage earner and him staying at home doing the caring and now their youngest is now 11 and everything has been fine for some years.

As to the offer of you seeing a counsellor, this is a good idea.
However it does depend on you and what helps you.

My husband tried it but he is a very quiet self contained person and would never naturally talk to anyone about his innermost thoughts except after establishing trust over many years.
This works well for him and in fact he is one of the most rock stable people I know

When I had PNI counselling was not therapeutic for him as the fear of having to open out to a complete stranger outweighed any therapeutic value.

But if you can use this sort of support it is the way to go for most people.

As to your wife thinking you will leave!

It is very common to have thoughts that your partner will leave when suffering PNI. My partner would never leave us in a hundred years but every time he went back to work I was so convinced he would not come back.

It is also common to have thoughts that your family would be better off without you, and to fantasise or seriously consider various ways to just not be there. The ways considered varying from walking out, leaving and changing identity, through to self harm in order to be hospitalised and suicide.

I even know women who have explored or considered ways of making themselves seriously physically ill as a temporary way out of the situation!

While with PNI, women do feel desperate in their own right but the main issue which seems to drive thoughts of suicide seems to be this conviction that you are bad for your family, or that without you your family would be fine, or you are destroying your families’ lives.


Of course this is not the case - I know my partner would rather have me ill than not all. This was discussed in a thread just the other day see: veritee.proboards7.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&n=1&thread=638&start=15 - this is on the main board – you can post on there as well, just as women can post on this section - it is not just for women and in the past many men have used it see for instance 'Partners Diary' which I have moved onto this section so forum users can easily see a diary of a mans experience of this.

This was certainly true for me, I was so convinced that without me my husband would manage fine and everyone would be better off. In reality nothing would have been furthest from the truth!

This is why I urge you not to take away all her duties/roles as a mother however much she panics and however hard you find it.

The more she has no role or use in the home the more she may feel you will all be better off without her.
Unfortunately it is all a viscious circle as the more responsibility she has with the children – the more she will probably panic.

However as a long time sufferer of panic attacks I know that by doing the thing that makes you panic and getting a little further each day, you really do get desensitised and can cope with more.

If it is not yet possible for her to have a role, she has to know how much you love her and how you would rather her be there and ill than not at all. Reassure her and love her as much as you are able.

On the subject of the panic attacks, I am sure this has been explored, but has anyone found our exactly what her fears are that are making her panic, What is your wife scared of which she fears will happen if she handles her babies?

Panic attacks are always about specific fears but sometimes they do feel general as you have buried the fear so deeply that while you panic in a given situation you can not be aware of or articulate what you are frightened of.

Is your wife aware of her fears or does it feel to her to be a general fear? She could also not be telling anyone what the fears are as she is ashamed of her thoughts.

To be ashamed of the fear that drives the panic attacks is very common as fears when you have PNI often involve harm coming to your baby/babies accidentally through your negligence or from your own hand either by your perceived incompetence ie dropping them, doing something that will hurt them accidentally, feeding them wrongly or the wrong food, the list is endless.

Either way you are scared and ashamed of the fact you do not trust yourself to keep you children safe and even fear you will deliberately harm them.

For someone who has had such a responsible and difficult job caring for vulnerable old people it can be particularly shattering that you do not trust/have confidence in your abilities to care for your own children.

However it becomes really something you are too shammed to tell anyone when your fears/thoughts become about you deliberately harming your child/children.


This is what happened to me as you will know if you have read my story!

It is something that happens to a big majority of women with PNI; in my opinion over half at least. That is they have obsessive bizarre thoughts that for some lead to extreme panic attacks and for many are about harming your child/ren.

However as many women are too scared to tell anyone, even their closest and rarely any professional, this is the one symptom that many professionals do not know is as common as it is and so when a woman tells then she is experiencing this sometimes even the professionals panic!

This really should not be a concern in itself.

The concern should be for the nightmare the woman is going through. Nothing can be worse than to hold your beloved child and have thoughts come into your head which you can not stop, that you will strangle, hit knife or otherwise harm that lovely vulnerable child.

The reason that the only concern in this should be not fear for the childs safety but care of the woman going through this, to encourage the woman to articulate her thoughts, to reassure her she is not an evil, bad person that in fact it is her deep love for her children that is causing/driving these thoughts.

A women with these thoughts is statistically highly unlikely to harm her child but quite likely to harm herself or commit suicide if her shame at these thoughts get too much.

I have gone on about these thoughts about harming your child probably too much as while something is certainly driving your wife’s panic, you have not indicated what this might be and it could be something completely different.

I also had panic attacks as well about global warming and that I had brought my child into a dying planet and she would meet a horrible death with the rest of humanity before she was truly grown up.

I just added this to show how bizarre but real and frightening to the person these thought s can be and they can be about absolutely anything at all.

Perhaps you could get back to me about what you think is driving the panic in your wife’s case

All the best

Veritee


PS. I started this just for men section because I was asked to by a couple of men but it has been very slow to be used and I was beginning to wonder if I should either incorporate it into the main section or at least re name it so that it is understood that it is about a mans perspective/issues/difficulties but not exclusively for men only.

As a participant on this section, what do you think – What do others think?

[jimmy riddle]

today i joined this forum . my name is john and i started this post when i was a guest.(just letting you know peeps) today was a good day for my wife and me. after reading veritees comments and advice i spoke to a counseller and it was decided that i should and would step back and let them help my wife (me stop making it easy for my wife) by getting to the root of her panic attacks .. she just says she cannot cope or is frightinged she won,t cope ..we are taking the kids to hospital for flu jabs tomorrow and to see how my wife copes after the setback at the weekend ..as i said today was good .. here is hoping tomorrow is just as good ..(i know it takes time) i have found this and will stick to it > depression knows no boundries especially if your a man < but there are people who are willing to help and listen ... i thank them from the bottom of this mans heart .... veritee your a gem ... john

[Veritee]

Dear John

How are things today? How have things gone since we last spoke. Has your wife come home again and how is this going.
Have you seen a counsellor?

Only reply if this will help.

Thank you for your kind words - it really does help me to get this feedback as it can be very lonely monitoring this forum all the time. I need reassurance too as we all do.

I only wish more men would participate on this forum or if this is not suitable start their own.

I know that it is not men that have PNI although I do believe many do get depression caused either by the birth or the fact of being a parent or because their wife of partner is ill and they have just so much to carry.

It would probably help you if men in the same position as you responded and I am sure there are many of them.

Would you consider that if I sent you a leaflet for this site you took it into the Mother and Baby Unit your wife goes to and try to get them to distribute the information to partners, husbands and close relatives and friends?

You may not want to do this in case someone you know comes on here and reads your posts.

This I would completely understand so it was just a suggestion to reach men in the same position as you and perhaps the women in the unit.

If you can not do this now perhaps you could when your wife is discharged and well in the future?

Anyway I hope you have had some success in taking more of a back seat when your wife is home.

Believe me I do know how hard this can be?

For different reasons as my husband and I have had to do something the same in a way as we have fostered and have had to stand back while the natural parents gradually take over again.

So we do have some understanding of how this may be for you.

All the best for now

Veritee

[Veritee]

Sorry - I did not mean your situation was anyway the same as standing back from 'natural' parents taking over again in the care of thieir children. You are of course the natural parent.

I was just using this as an example of understanding how difficult it is to 'stand back' sometimes

All the best


Veritee

[jimmy riddle]

veritee ..my wife is now responding to the treatment . she has been out for a few hours tuesday for our kids to get the flu jab . we thought it would have set her back but she responded well . her father phoned us on tuesday to find out how the kids done at hospital and when he was told fine he started to call me all the names under the sun and continued the tiraid at my wife so she broke down in tears and we thought thats it back to square 1 .but she supprised us by being strong and she wants to beat the illness ..as for your offer of a leaflet yes i will put one up for you but it will need to wait till i leave the unit please ... she has not had an attack for the last 3 days and she conseulled another girl in the unit . the staff think she is now on the road to recovery but its early days ...positive talking and thinking may do the trick ... our son is not well tonight (wee bug) so this will be a test to see if she copes .. i hope so ....john

[Veritee]

Dear John

I am so glad your wife seems to be responding and getting better.
Thew flu jab or any injections are a trying time for anyone with young children - your wife seemed to cope very well.

How awlful for you to experience this abiuse from your father in law. I may have been promted by misguided protection of his daughter but even so this is a horribe situaltion.

I am afraid it is quite commi=on for fathers of women with PNI to b

From what you say she does seem to be strong and battleing to get over this horrible thing.

She has in in fact been though a lot for anyone in that twins and a difficult birth plus the babies being a long time in hospital are enough for anyone to go through.

I will say though that once your wife is out of hospital

( which I am sure will happen soon ) it is not the end of PNI.
For some it is a remarkabley short period of convelesence but for others they need support for many months even years

[Veritee]

Dear John

I am so glad your wife seems to be responding and getting better.
Thew flu jab or any injections are a trying time for anyone with young children - your wife seemed to cope very well.

How awlful for you to experience this abiuse from your father in law. I may have been promted by misguided protection of his daughter but even so this is a horribe situaltion.

I am afraid it is quite commi=on for fathers of women with PNI to b

From what you say she does seem to be strong and battleing to get over this horrible thing.

She has in in fact been though a lot for anyone in that twins and a difficult birth plus the babies being a long time in hospital are enough for anyone to go through.

I will say though that once your wife is out of hospital

( which I am sure will happen soon ) it is not the end of PNI.
For some it is a remarkabley short period of convelesence but for others they need support for many months even years

[Veritee]

Dear John

I am so glad your wife seems to be responding and getting better.
The flu jab or any injections are a trying time for anyone with young children - your wife seemed to cope very well.

How awful for you to experience this abuse from your father in law. I may have been prompted by misguided protection of his daughter but even so this is a horrible situation for you on top of everything else.

I am afraid it is quite common for fathers of women with PNI to blame the husband.

I think it is because like many people they just do not understand it and think it must have been caused by someone and you are the only person they can think of. It may also be because they feel they can no longer protect the daughter they love so much from the risks of life.

He has handed this protection over to you and because he does not understand PNI, her feels you have not protected her.

This is just my observation on how these things work - which may not be right in your case , but I do know you have time - many years - to repair your relationship with you wife’s father and now you need to concentrate on your wife.

From what you say she does seem to be strong and battling to get over this horrible thing.

She has in fact been though a lot for anyone, in that twins and a difficult birth plus the babies being a long time in hospital are enough for anyone to go through.

I will say though that once your wife is out of hospital

(which I am sure will happen soon )
it is not the end of PNI.
For some it is a remarkably short period of convalescence but for others they need support for many months’ even years to become fully well or come to terms with having had PNI.

Well good bye for now and I do hope your wife continues to recover - let me know how it all goes.

All the best

Veritee

[jimmy riddle]

well heres my update .. ;D my wife was discharged from the perinatal unit for mothers and babies .. the doctors say shes better and she feels she can now cope with the twins now she feels she is over the worse of it . but they do say she will still have her bad days (odd day) but she feels she will be able to confront the panic attack . ( i hope so ) we will now do things different from the way we started . i will deal with 1 kid and my wife will deal with the other and the next day we will swap kids .. i hope this works ....